The VC Bar

Welcome to the Volcano Café bar, a place for all things on or off topic and inane ramblings. There has been a need of late to find a place better suited to various theories, long comments and enthusiasm. This page will be less moderated than the main article pages and cleared out every month (this may change depending on use).

Have fun and don’t forget to tip the barman 😉

4,753 thoughts on “The VC Bar

  1. One EQ question.
    I am looking on Raspberryshake stations site. They have 2 live streaming:
    – M/S
    – Frequency Hz (between 0-50)
    How can I read data that I sort eq from other noises.
    At the moment Iooking R93E9 (Croatia) and RCF63 (Slovenija)

    Happy holidays to all of you. And many thanks for all your writing.

  2. Tnx.
    Do you maybe know some similar chat about EQ?
    I really want to learn read this data.
    Now I have oportunity because seismic activity is a little bit higer.

  3. The Swiss Matterhorn is swinging!

    Uh, it is headbanging afew micrometers every two seconds…. 😄

    A nice illusrtation in the article here:

    Most intriguing is how it sounds!
    Speed is 80x.

    • I figured this out back in 2020. Laboratory leaks of infectious agents are not really that rare.
      The last smallpox cases in the UK in 1970 or so were from a lab leak.

      Then there is the reason the Marburg Virus is called the Marburg Virus. It isn’t actually native to Germany. It is a relative of ebolavirus.

      First learned this stuff in grad school studying infectious diseases.

  4. Albert

    Better here: All I’m saying is that Sweden is a liberal country. A liberal country has trust in its population. The Netherlands should think about all of this. I considered them a liberal country as well.
    Germany is as illiberal as you can get in democracies. In the two lockdowns spring 2020 and automn 2020 to spring 2021 there were people who called the police when their neighbours had one guest too much. It strongly sounded like a) DDR, b) National Socialism. The second lived from that (the first as well), there are books about it. Maybe it’s genetic. I abhor turning people in and have never once done this kind of thing.
    They push it all on one single guy, and that is the main problem. No one ever told them that they had been whistle blowers of the worst kind and that, without them, eliminatory anti-Semitism wouldn’t have had a chance. The key word here is obedience to authorities.

  5. This is me here and, I know it isn’t WorldbuildingCafe, but I would need a bit of help for anyone to check this:
    Anyone can download it if you want, but this is basically a graph for volcanoes similar to the Hawaiian Islands, but except for the fact that there are 2 hotspots instead of one. This may seem wacko, but I thought “hey, this might be possible”, so I did it anyways. The rough copy is here:
    Got my numbers from sources I forgot to write down or even type (I know, I had one job). Basically, I have read the Kilauea Magma Root Series by Hector and, so, I did them in groups, except a little more detailed, like the “primary” has, during its formation at the 1st hotspot, has a more tholeiitic compositional component and also has a bit of a longer lifespan but not so much the alkalitic post-shield (which makes them more active during the main shield stage but not so-much during the post-shield, therefore making them the largest). On the other hand, the latest ones are the opposite of the primary (small, alkalitic, short main-shield phase but longer post-shield stage and being the smallest of the complex). After that, they go into a deep sleep (with a bit of volcanic activity with some and erosion taking hold) until the second hotspot is under their feet. The roles reverse and the primaries become the more alkalitic but less active, whereas the “recents” become the more tholeiitic and more active ones, which by the end, become the largest of the group. I have added some exceptions, nor did I account erosion for this, but it’s just a start. I turned to you guys because you guys are the experts at this. Reply to me if you would make any corrections.

    • This is from the Peter Vervoorn guy when I saw his message on Gmail (maybe next time comment here so that it’s not weirding me out).
      Note that I am only posting this for him and not anything malicious:

      Hi Zach. Saw the link on Volcano café and thought I’d have a look. The numbers seem to add up but I can’t make any sense of it I’m afraid.

      • Well, I kinda did a bit of research on the lifespan and growth rate of the volcanoes (specifically, the Hawaiian ones) and pretty much thought about it.
        These are my sources I now remember: (specifically Chapter 3)
        The volume is pretty, well, how much volume there is in each stage and how much time each stage takes (in normal years). They are pretty much random numbers I gave out, using the chart for each stage to make them a little realistic and calculated their volume by their average growth rate (even though they have ever-changing growth rates realistically). The plate movement of this area of oceanic plate is 11.4 cm/yr, compared to the 8-10 cm/yr of the Pacific Plate under the islands of Hawaii (the speed of the plates isn’t really constant, like this plate, on average, moves about 12 cm/yr), so I calculated the duration of how long the volcano sat on the hotspot for by ratio-ing it by dividing the distance by the speed rate of the Honas plate (Honas is the name for the fictional plate for now on). The growth rates of the volcanoes is pretty much calculating the power of the hotspot (% of the Hawaiian hotspot) and applied it to the growth rates of the Hawaiian volcanoes (i.e. the average growth rates of them) and the fun begins. I used the same techniques to the distance from their birth-spot. To be honest with you, the volcano separation rate is a little confusing for maybe even me, but basically it is a N-S trend, not really a 2d dimension, but, say Volcano 1 is at the hotspot, it is 0, however, Volcano 2 is 40 km away from Volcano 1 and Volcano 3 is 30 km from Volcano 2 (yeah, even I can’t really explain that but that’s what was going in my head) and so on, as a sort of separation rate (should’ve been separation distance away from another volcano), or, in other words, the volcanoes need space and, from there is when I began spitting numbers out onto there (from the rough copy, which is carefully polished for the ‘good’ copy) and that is the result I got for them. (Honestly, with that plate speed, they should be smaller). So yeah, that should clear any sort of confusion. (If it doesn’t, and, really, I am sometimes good at making some simpler things confusing, comment below).

    • When I saw “Hubble crisis” I immediately thought of the recent failure of the A side flight computer on the Hubble telescope. I thus felt somewhat confident that that particular Hubble crisis didn’t cause the extinction of the dinosaurs. 🙂 .

      • Yes, I also had to look twice at that. Of course anyone over he age of 50 is seen as a dinosaur by the younger generation and that is no different in science. But this paper claims that the difference in Hubble constant in the nearby and distant universe is not a measurement error (as most assume) but caused by a change in the gravitational constant. There is so much wrong with that that it is hard to know where to start (non-conservation of energy would be one). Linking it to the dinosaurs would be suitable for April 1. Poor things.

        • Preparations for the April 1 article anyhow need to kick off. This enables you to back it up with “peer reviewed scientific” articles.

  6. With high anxieties over the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the one thing that should be said is that this military action doesn’t automatically guarantee WW3. There have been several close calls that were far worse then what we are going through now, some were moments that an incredibly small change of leadership, split second actions, and small differences in timing stopped nuclear war.
    With that being said if this is how the world goes out, I’ll have to ask for fate’s manager on why a volcanic eruption wasn’t chosen for our demise

    • Well Tallis, as a normal citizen I wouldn’t understand why the world would get involved in a conflict between Russia and the US about a small and basically ridiculously small country like Ukraine plus interests in the Black Sea.
      But there are lots of things I don’t understand. I wonder i.e. about the brain structure of disgusting creatures – sorry – who are pondering a multi-generation space ship or about wanting to “offer” to people to live on the Moon or Mars, never to see any green or blue or their relatives again. Those personalities should go themselves. If they want to “colonize” Space they go and nobody else. Some people have become outright megalomaniacs, crazy without realizing.
      It is the fault of the ridiculous government in Ukraine btw. They made a law that those Eastern provinces are not allowed to speak Russian any more. I feel sorry for the US for supporting those governments in Ukraine.

      • Well well as Supreme Leader of Antartica .. Im sending my Pengiun Army To defend Ukraine

        Putin will soon face 100 billion angry Highly armed pengiuns .. Im also planning to deploy our ”Uruk Pengs” highly gene modifyed pengiun super soilders

      • Well well my friend

        My pengiun troops is already on the way up Ukraine

        Transports in giant zeppelins will soon arrive in Ukraine the Russian VS jespers penguin army 🙂

        Anyway what a scary situation

        • We don’t need getting involved there. The country never got its act together and should be split in two halfs. With or without a war this will be the result.
          I like your pengouin army though.
          Read my links about a possible massive meteorite impact before the Cryogenian. Basically you seem to like that sort of stuff.

        • It is one of the moments where I understand you. Or Tallis. When I think it would be better to die out. It is a completely stupid species. The rare exceptions only show what could have been.
          Wars make me think that we are an abberration of nature, a terrible mistake. To get out of this I regurlarly have to listen to a sane intelligent person, mostly a scientist.
          I hope there is still some mediation by Merkel or Schröder. The government we have now is insanely infantile. You can see it in cutting off Atomic Power first and then paying for Atomic Power from France and other countries. This is a government which seems to think that electricity comes out of sockets and sockets reload automatically.

      • Ukraine is not small by any measure. It is bigger than Germany and has the same population as Spain. It is almost a third of that of Russia.

        • Yeah sure, I more meant the pop. count. That’s why they could live without the Eastern provinces.
          But as you can clearly see I am more interested in the volcanism of the Tyrrhenian Sea, just saying, not interested in a war at all and not for Ukraine. Just making it as clear as mountain water.

        • It might even be the same old story, like a fix idea. You should study why Physicist Joseph Rothblat left the Manhatten Project.

      • They lived on a smal butte of ignimbrite. Volcanoes, altogether, are lesse dangerous than human enemies. As the hill suffers from erosion only 16 people live there today:

        Civita di Bagnoregio, east of Lago di Bolsena.

  7. Vladimir Putin is not a particularly likeable character; but he is responsible for the economy and security of Russia. I would be interested to read how people critical of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine would have done differently, if they were Putin, given US and NATO rejection of his reasonable request for security guarantees.

    2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis and invasion
    Main articles: 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis and 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
    In September 2021, Ukraine conducted military exercises with NATO forces.[229] The Kremlin warned that NATO expanding military infrastructure in Ukraine would cross “red lines” for Putin.[230][231] Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov denied allegations that Russia was preparing for a possible invasion of Ukraine.[232]
    On 30 November 2021, Putin stated that an expansion of NATO’s presence in Ukraine, especially the deployment of any long-range missiles capable of striking Russian cities or missile defence systems similar to those in Romania and Poland, would be a “red line” issue for the Kremlin.[233][234][235] Putin asked President Joe Biden for legal guarantees that NATO wouldn’t expand eastward or put “weapons systems that threaten us in close vicinity to Russian territory.”[236] The U.S. and NATO have rejected Putin’s demands.[237][238]

    • They also haves ”Satan 2” ready now
      Its the new russia ICBM s .. They are phasing out the old 1970 s ones replacing them with more advanced nuclear missiles. Apparently Satan 2 have a range of 19 000 km it .. and it haves many reentry warheads inside with perhaps 10 megaton for each.
      These behemoths will only be for last use if Putin feel that Russias existence is at danger.. they will be ”Terror Balance” for mutual destruction .. and That keept WW3 away during the cold war .. the largest nuclear devices are also the biggest ”peacekeepers” on Earth

      Its also possible that Putin will use very small tactical nuclear weapons in the Ukraine war .. souch are small ground missiles with up to 10 kiloton in yeild

      Im following the news.. But Im getting so tired 🥱 of everything

      • Unless Putin has completely lost it he wont use nukes in a war, because even a tactical nuke would make whatever people worried would happen at Chernobyl look like an accident in comparison. 10 kilotons is not much smaller than the Fatman and Little Boy, which levelled entire cities, nuclear weapons are not ‘tactical’, they are basically the weapons of gods.

        Chernobyl was abandoned the other day because the soldiers dug a trench in a hot zone and some got radiation poisoning.

      • Well its me reading too much about Tsar Bomba and the much bigger Chicxulub

        So fat man and little boy seems like minnows to me

        Im just as crazy .. the dream is a nuclear test with same yeild as Chicxlulub.. or an Antimatter Bomb …

        Two months ago I dreamt of a Thermonuclear Bomb as long as Titanic .. 🙂 hidden Inside a ship hull to avoid decetion

    • There are tactical nukes with a few Kilotons .. like the Beirut blast

      Such coud be launched by small missiles.. woud not supprise at all If the russian uses them

      We have seen Thermobaric weapons so far .. and they are scary enough. I guess a hypotetical Thermobaric weapon with same yeild as Fat Man woud probaly be just as deadly as anything nuclear ..

  8. I am sure you’re all familiar with what happened at last night’s ̶C̶i̶r̶c̶u̶s̶ Oscars. So let me just say that if I hear any more B.S about celebrity antics or other meaningless and useless “news” I am going to break into the white house and launch every ducking nuclear warhead! Or better yet! I will sprinkle my fairy dust on Toba. Campi Flegrei, Tatun. Yellowstone, and every other volcano on this planet and cause the volcanic winter to end all volcanic winters.

    • An Asteorid Impact is much better at making your volcanic winter of dreams 🙂

      But fun that Taal is back in action, been pheratomagmatic eruptions yesterday .. looks like its Maybe changing up for something massive

      • We’ll see what Taal does, I want a massive climate-altering eruption or nothing at all from this volcano. Davidof can deliver the fun harmless explosive eruption

  9. I keeps seeing halos and rainbows around ligths at nights.. and been doing that for a very long time. Im going To be investigated for glacoma

    I was born many months too early so eyesight problems is a certain, after all Im 26 now

    Althrough last time 9 months ago eye pressure was normal at optomerist

    But I needs a eye specialist To really have a look at the eyes

    • Im more suspecting cataract which can be fixed very easly. Im very young, but young adults can also get these problems

      Most likley is either cataract or even better Severe astigmatism.. the better alternatives

      Healthcare is cost free in this country But sucks it takes souch a very long time to get an health investigation .. been waiting for months.. so going try for a private clinic

      • Could be astigmatism. My daughter discovered she has astigmatism when she complained that lights at night gave long streaks across her vision.
        Good luck with the diagnosis.

  10. Jupiters pushes inside our sun .. just telling how massive our sun is

    I wonder whats the absolute limit of a stars mass. In the early universe there may have been Violet – Ultragiants with 1000 s of Sun masses?

    • Maybe the limit of when fusion can fight gravity before black hole collapse. Or the opposite where the star blows itself apart.

      Lots of really massie stars just turn into Wolf Rayet stars which form planetary nebulae and degenerate objects passively, and dont go supernova. Although when these stars actually do go supernova it is much more powerful than a normal one ecause of all the matter in the way which absorbs the energy. Because of that great mass loss though the second path might be the stellar limit, where fusion overcomes gravity.

      • I am afraid that nothing here is quite correct.. The stellar mass limit comes from the Jeans mass of interstellar clouds, which depends on temperature. Nowadays it is around 200 Msun. In the early Universe before elements other than hydrogen and helium existed it would have been quite a bit higher, but only for the very first stars.

      • R136a1 Is over 300 solar masses 🙂 and 9 million times brigther than our sun is

  11. Still the origin of modern, broadleaf megathermal flowering wet tropical rainforests remains a mystery! .. they fossilize very poorly due to rapid decompostion in these hot humid enviroments

    But already by PETM 55 million years ago
    They had a global distribution thanks to pollen preserved in oxygen poor sediments and fossil flora and fauna from anoxic jungle lakes thats pretty much the only places where tropical fossilzation is possible

    Still When the modern tropical flowering rainforest evolved is unknown .. because they fossilize so poorly.

    Earlier rainforests in Jurassic, Triassic,Permian and Carboniferous where Conifers and haves a good fossil record, probaly because they where less wet than flowering rainforests

    Flowering plants emerged in Early Cretaceous
    So Modern Angiosperm Jungles probaly evolved in Cretaceous.. Althrough lack of signs of frustrating.

    Drilling kilometers into marine sediments along africa, america, asia coud answer this question looking for pollen that blow of the continents

    • Messel Pit is the only good Early / Middle Eocene fossil site in Europe that preserves these rainforests as record .. due to its oxygen poor nature as a deep volcanic lake

      But Otherwise modern tropical rainforests haves a very poor fossil record

    • And gigatons of coal to charge them.

      An electric car is just an energy storage device. Nothing more.

      Don’t get me wrong. Electric vehicles are cool an all that, but it does not address the primary energy source.

      • The case for electric cars: It allows us to remove fossil fuels from the supply. We cannot run cars on wind or solar if they are not electric. The engine is much simpler and more reliable. If you were to design a car now, you would not propel it with explosion, like a mini project Orion. The cars should also last much longer.

        The case against: at the moment we don’t produce enough renewable electricity to run the cars. The batteries are still too small: you should not have to recharge during a one-day trip. The batteries may not last as long as the car. Very important if you are a car manufacturer: you don’t want cars to last longer. And finally, fossils fuels are a source of income to governments. Solar and wind is much harder to tax.

        On balance, electric cars are the future. I am not quite sure they are yet the present.

      • Might want to look at the other half of Tesla, battery storage and solar. Currently a smaller sector but expected to overtake the automotive side. Elon is rather crazy ambitious, but there is no denying he takes everything he says about this stuff seriously. Best to play on the side of caution about dates, but treat the missed dates as delays not failures. Love him or hate him he has directed things in a better direction a lot faster than would have happened otherwise. It is making the future I wanted as a kid sound possible 🙂

        Hes not alone either battery storage and solar/wind is going to explode this decade, not from environmental good will but economics, it is much cheaper and if properly implemented also much more reliable than fossil fuels, and the more is set up the faster and greener the installation of further assets will be. But it isnt sexy, cars are though, they needed to get attention. And for those rural niche uses where a battery is not adequate for useful range, biofuel might get its niche. Trucks and planes are where hydrogen research should be focussed, not cars. Battery recycling is also already a mature technology, just currently not profitable because most batteries ever made today are still in use, its grown that fast. In a few years recycling will be big business and highly profitable, and landfill will be recycled for the new valubles it now contains.

    • If you want to address my concerns… look at the similaities of Honey Hush by Foghat, and Train Kept a Rolling my Aereosmith. Two disparate songs that are remarkably similar but have disparate origins .

  12. Since the Webcam Viewer widget on the sidebar has been on the blink for a while (with a bit of code missing according to dev-tools) I have a link where you can get the source HTML, which I -try- to update at least ever quarter. There’s an example of the updated version there as well as a link to my DL page.

    PS the rumours of m having left the planet were for the most part a gross exaggeration.

    • Good fix them because I cannot use them at all.. not been able so since 2018

      Im also working on my own Volcanocafe Article, Im writing about Nyiragongo and ultra – alkaline volcanism .. Im still writing and worth to write about

      Volcanocafe Blog is much better than Facebook Groups at discussing volcano stuff, and moving my activity over here competely. Also VC Blog WordPress is very tollerant of us ASD persons unlike FB

      You should also write your own post about volcanoes : ) why not write about your local bedrock that are the hearts of long gone subduction zone volcanoes, Georgia haves a fascinating geological history

      Im planning to write a later VC WordPress post about Kiruna Volcanism in Sweden as well that are a totaly fascinating topic

  13. So cool this is so cool
    You can clearly see Jupiter’s internal heat leaking out into space, thick cloud bands are dark and absorbing blocking escaping heat while thin clouds release heat instead

    In Hadean Era the whole Jupter woud have glowed like this for the visible eye 🙂 and probaly had hot metal and sillicate clouds in the upper atmosphere. I wonder If metal and sillicate clouds still exist today in the hotter layers below the water clouds.

    Even today .. Jupiter clearly remains extremely hot just a few 100 km below the visible clouds, 160 km below the water clouds its 300 C and rises up to perhaps 36 000 C at the center. Jupiter is the most massive planet in this solar system and haves the most internal heating

    Whops meant for the VC Bar



    • Many Brown Dwarfs woud also look like this in the visible eye .. that are hot enough to glow, souch Brown Dwarfs can have 70 Jupiter masses crammed into a volume as small as Saturn .. making these gaseous Bodies as much 10 times denser than the metal Osmium! Yet its a gas

      Ended up in VC bar as wanted

      Some Brown Dwarfs are many many many many times denser than Osmium yet being you probaly float in these atmospheres and cannot sink

    • Absoutley nuts! 60 Jupiter masses crammed into a volume as Big as saturn .. No doubt that these substellar Brown Dwarfs are dense as hell

      A gassy body many many times denser than the metal Osmium cracks my mind: I guess its in a form of a superdense hydrogen liquid in the interior

      Their surface gravity must be crazy too, much higher than our bloated sun

      The smallest Red Dwarf Stars are also sickly dense

  14. Probably better to put here. That last comment I made, the daily HVO update inclided a new note of a short tremor from the ERZ. I might have managed to find it, just east of Pu’u O’o, detected by the seismometer KUPD which sits on the old Kupaianaha vent east of Pu’u O’o. Not very strong or visible anywhere else but then this is way out far from everywhere, unlikely to be human interference like happens at the summit sometimes.

    Additionally, there might be a slight upward trend at the JOKA station, which is further east and a bit north of the Heiheiahulu shield, further east than the area active in decades before 2018. There was significant inflation here after 2018 but nothing since before the recent eruptions at all, up to now, so noteworthy.

  15. somewhat off topic – but mostly aimed at Lurking (due to his radar/sonar skills) and also for similar plotting type folks

    Bats give off sound waves with distinct front edges – and you can record a trace a bit like you would on a seimograph, and you can obviously use those to locate the epicentre of earthquakes.

    If you have 3 sound recordings set up up in a 10m triangle – am I right in thinking with the speed of sound in air being 340m/s (or at least presumably a single value within a 100m radius) then a click front would take about 0.03 seconds to get across the triangle – so if one station got a click and the next got a click 0.01 seconds later and the third 0.03 seconds later (or something like that) – could you theoretically use the assumption that the bat is above the horizon (rather than in the ground) to plot where the bat was for each click in 3d space? (and assume that the bat is not inside the triangle with you)

    I think it ought to be possible – am I missing something obvious ?
    I’m guessing it’s a bit like plotting an earthquake swarm but in super fast speed (and down values being up values)

  16. 26 years ago since Galileos Atmospheric Probe fell into Jupiter, here is some nice renditions of what the local atmospheric enviroment coud have looked like. Falling into Jupiter is Falling into a bottomless gas ocean that becomes a liquid further down .. around – 150 C When it deployed its parachutes and +120 C when it lost contact and was crushed

    The Atmospheric Probe entered a dry zone with only thin clouds, You woud see a clear blue daysky due to reylenght scattering and a dark pit below.. you coud see a few 100 s of km down until the raylenght scattering makes that interior opaque and dark, and it woud defentivly be a horizon as well. The jovian daysky woud get more saturated with blue the deeper you go and perhaps even get red if you go deep enough j

    It woud be a disturbing sight specialy knowing its nothing solid below, clear skies over a bottomless pit.

    The probes parachutes woud have melted first after it lost contact, then the Probe metals melt as well becomming liquid droplets that fall down into Jupiters abyss, as temperatures reach over 2800 C all of the probes materials where vaporized and became a part of Jupiters atmosphere. The heat shield woud have lasted the longest When it fell into Jupiters interior, in Jupiters center its 36 000 C But the Probe only got below 100 km of the lowermost cloud layer

    • An unlucky human there woud fall down all way to the 200 0000 Bar level where the superhot atmosphere is a dense fluid, and you cannot sink further because the density of the sorruding Jupiter medium, also the victim becomes a carbonised space potato as well, since there is no free oxygen inside Jupiter. But the human may simply vaporize in the heat, alternativly it coud turn the body into diamond 💎 with the extreme pressures and temperatures inside Jupiter

      Falling into Jupiter will kill you No doubt about that 😉

      • You would be dead much faster from lack of oxygen, or the cold at high altitude, so no need to worry about getting turned into a space potato.

        Hydrogen is not inert at those temperatures, it would probably react with carbon to make light hydrocarbons way before the point if neutral buoyancy. Only bit left might be bones, which are more dense so would go deeper. Not sure what depth bones would float there but it might be pretty shallow still, since Jupiter as a whole still has a density more than that of water and the core is probably comparable to gold or tungsten.

    • Right, But with an pressurized oxygen tank and warm clothes you coud probably be fine at Jupiters tropospause 50 km above the upper ammonia cirrus. I wonder what that woud look like, You woud have an immensely distant horizon knowing how Big Jupiter is and perhaps see a dark blue daysky

      The CGI renditions here are the only accurate trys at simulating that

      The thunderstorms woud be an Impressive sight 70 km high with anvils 4000 km wide for the really nasty convective outbursts.. feed by Jupiters Internal Heat, They are atmospheric air volcanoes

      On Saturn it woud be much less features I guess since the cloud layers are deeper and Saturn have much less internal heat generation, crush depth is also much deeper there

    • Falling into a Brown Dwarf woud be even worse .. souch objects can as small as Saturn yet having 60 Jupiter masses, giving them phenomenaly high avarge density that can be 10 times higher than Osmium! Its kind of hard to imagine how dense that is… You coud fall into these too as well, But You woud not get very far inside.
      A gas body thats so insanely dense and hardly a gas either ..

      Atmospheric Entry on a massive Brown Dwarf must be insane! Knowing how high their gravity is, any probe woud be accelerated to tremedous speeds, At Jupiter its 60 km a second, But at Brown Dwarfs atmospheric entries are much much faster, so fast that Maybe not possible to enter at all even with heat shield

      • Be interested to know of lightning would also occur on Brown Dwarfs and Hot Jupiter, like it does on Jupiter and Saturn.

      • Probaly when liquid lava droplets and solid sand particles run togther in sillicate clouds .. just like an ashcloud of volcanic origin on Earth

        Brown Dwarfs can have sillicate clouds and metal clouds

    • Neptune and Uranus is pretty strange too as well, they are mega masses of Hot ionic water and ammonia ”Ice Giants” with only an outer hydrogen part. Their interiors are hot soups of water and ammonia at 1000 s of degrees C like nothing else in the solar system really. Althrough they too lack a solid surface, Seriously needs Atmospheric Entry probes for these planets, they are also easier to enter than Jupiter and so diffrent they are as well from the larger jovian giant planets

  17. Rare photo of the Jupiter Atmospheric Probe, by far the most difficult atmospheric entry ever tryed, from 50 km a second to 200 kilometers an hour in 4 minutes: and 16 000 C plasma envelope around it and 230 G forces. I read that 80% of the heat shield was burned away during these terrible minutes. If Jupiter was more massive it woud barely be possible with even higher Entry speeds

    The heat – shield was dropped into Jupiters interior and probaly made it almost to the outer liquid hydrogen layer since its Carbon Phenolic and very heat resistant.

  18. If Jupiters major moons where all Earth sized woud we end up with a Super IO? The tides sourely woud go beyond insanity

    • Well a Super Earth stuck between two Supermassive black hole binaries woud be ideal

    • No. The solid tides would be about 2-3 times higher than Io has now. Any liquid tide would be smaller than you think, because the tide velocity would be much higher than the wave velocity, so a very poor quality factor.

  19. This might be an odd thing to ask but is there any advice of how to create a sort of hotspot system similar to the Hawaiian Island chain but not?

    I came here (in the first place) to get inspiration because I am a sort of worldbuilder (it is more of a hobby than a job) who is all wacko for volcanoes and downloads PDFs to get a bit of realism for what is or what isn’t possible.

    My particular interest is, well, an island chain with 2 hotspots. (I have sorta done this before but it became very confusing and insanity was at hand)…

    2 hotspots, you may ask? Well, it is like this: the plate moves north-ish at 11.8 cm a year in that area, at the tropics, far from any continent.

    The 1st hotspot (as powerful as the one in Hawaii) creates an island chain similar to, well, Hawaii but, 670 km north from the origin, they intersect another hotspot slightly more powerful than the one that created the islands in the first place.

    I mostly figured out what to do on the 1st “part” (or hotspot, taking notes from Hectors posts and a few PDF’s), you know, calculating growth rates of each volcano, how long they are active for and how big they are.

    The second part, however, is dubious and speculative for me. Initially, I thought the volcanoes were gonna re-activate, but the magma would’ve solidified by then, so that was mostly out of the window.

    Presently, the amount of lava made by the volcanoes would’ve made the crust thicker, so I would assume that the crust would be similar to continental crust, where it would produce magma chambers and erupt out more siliceous materials in a diverse range of magma types erupted, therefore more types of volcano morphology mostly exotic to oceanic hotspots. (I was even thinking about the possibility of a supervolcano on the island, however, that would make no sense at all).

    I could be wrong, which is why I am asking for advice in the VC bar.

    • How massive is your planet? If its a rocky world bigger than Earth then you will have some serious geological activity! Only 2 Earth masses will insanely increase internal heating

      Some Super Earths have 10 Earth masses.. and probaly are as volcanic as IO because of that …and Thats insane internal heating If it haves an Earthlike composition

      I wonder If a Rock Giant is possible perhaps coud form in dust rich planetary disks that are free of hydrogen thats been blown away by their central Star. Souch planets will become ” Magma Giants” because of their internal heating

      How Big can terestrial planets get?

      • Pretty much an exact Earth analog with a moon about 0.81 Luna masses and about 0.279 Earth radii. (Smaller than the Moon). (I know that Moons do not affect the planets geology in any way). On that same note, it has a semi-major axis of 350200 km, closer to the planet than our moon to Earth.

        Despite its size, it would make the average tide height of 0.384 meters. (To be honest, I have no idea what that is relative to the average tide height on Earth, which hence I have no idea).

        The planet itself has a northern hemispheric supercontinent with some land crossing the equator into the northern hemisphere. It has began to break up about 30 million years ago to form a mostly latitude-oriented sea that is colder than the ocean due to a ice cap that formed on the land near it.

        The ice cap formed due to the break-up that is providing moisture and cooling it down because of a Himalayas-like range that has begun forming 20 million years ago due to a smaller continent colliding with the supercontinent itself (and also a few Andean-type ranges).

        The only land bridge connecting the two pieces is a land bridge of slightly excessive mid-ocean ridge volcanism. I haven’t gotten around completing an elevation map for the climate, though.

      • I read about there is a rocky exoplanet with 40 Earth masses ( most massive terestrial planet ever discovered) that yeilds 4G in gravity and an insane internal heating.. Maybe the whole object is molten because of that also likey is the stripped core of a gas giant

        And Live view of Etna Erupting

    • Interestingly, this is what happens in Hawai’i. Many of the submarine mounts around the islands are from a much older volcanic field which now passes the hot spot. We can see the mounts on the ocean floor, but there will also be ones underneath the Big island and we don’t know where or what they would do! It makes Hawai’i a bit like the princess and the pea. In your case, 670 km with 11.8 cm/yr makes the volcanoes 5.7 million years old. The magma will have solidified. The spot will remelt this. It is a bit lower density than pure basalt because of separation of minerals. The remelt will be buoyant and rise. It may have taken in water if it was under water for all that time. Expect an explosive mixture when volcanism starts. Katla does this a bit. It can produce both basalt and rhyolite, the latter presumably from remelting of old magma.

      • Wow, I did not really know that the already-solidified magma would melt faster than the extrusive basalts, though I was thinking that any large volcano (i.e. Mauna Loa) would have a sort of thick enough crust to create magma chambers, which at first would be more silica-rich. I would expect totally new volcanoes to arise from this volcanism.

        Decompression melt (due to the atoms within the magma having more space due to decreased pressure) might be possible before the second stage starts, although they would be minute compared to the enormity of the volcanism potentially unleashed by the secondary hotspot (which, by mind, has about 120% the strength of the previous hotspot).

        It would be likely that the islands would re-rise due to the swell of that hotspot. If this was Hawaii, Kaua’i would essentially rise by around 1-3 km. By that time, Kaua’i would by then be a active volcano probably bigger than even Mauna Loa but steeper due to more siliceous inputted into the volcano.

        It would be that when the island first formed would move away from the 1st hotspot and sink and be inactive for a long time, by the eroded heavily with coral reefs around it, until it meets up with the 2nd hotspot. It would gradually rise and volcanism becoming more active until a style of bimodal volcanism appears, potentially more silica rich but, as time goes, it would produce more mafic products until it moves away from the hotspot, this time officially extinct.

        I would expect a few calderas in the 1st phase in the reactivation (maybe a potential supervolcano, who knows), with the older phases being big shield volcanoes and the height of these monstrosities being larger than maybe even Puhahonu of the Gardener Islands, even though that would be cheating because they got another chance.

        I also realized about another thing – the plume tail of the first hotspot crossing though the island chain until the 2nd hotspot, could that make any volcanism way before they even meet the 2nd hotspot? Or would it be all “rejuvenation” (decompression) until the 2d spot?

    • Also, I may ask – which values for the vector speed of the Pacific Plate under Hawai’i is correct: ~10.5 cm/yr (based on using the age of Kaua’i and the distance from Kame’ahuakanaloa (Lō’ihi) to Kaua’i), ~9 cm/yr (Wikipedia map) or ~7 cm/yr (based on Google and a paper describing GPS movements on Muana Kea). (Yes, this is a stupid question)

      The sort of reasoning why because I want to do some percentages on how long the stages of the volcano is going to last, based on plate movement and comparing them to the Hawaiian volcano values and applying them to the island chain here.

      I definitely know that, based on the plate movements of the plate, it is 11.8 cm/yr, but there are many conflicting answers online to the point where I have no idea which one to use.

      I also know that areas on the plate go through different vectors (the plate the island chain resides has a top “speed” of more than 12 cm/yr and the fastest plate on this planet (not Earth) goes at a top speed of 28 cm/yr! How I love to go a little unrealistic…). That is the particular reason why I asked that mid-school muti-questionare thingykabob.

      • The speed of the Pacific plate probably has varied a bit over time. Or the hot spot may have moved itself to the south, adding a bit to the relative motion. For the plate, a direct measurement has indicated that the current speed is 6.9+-1.9 cm/yr. That is probably where the ‘7’ comes from. It was obtained by measuring the distance between Hawai’i and Japan over a few years! Over the past 18 million years, the average speed of the Hawai’ian volcanoes was 8.1 cm/yr. Those are the best two numbers that are available.

        • With that confirmed, the plate the islands stand on is very quick, and with that quickness (“speed”) the islands would have less time building up their edifices.

          If I used the former, the volumes and the activity would be reduced by 58.5%, meaning that they would create smaller islands. If that was applied to Hawaii, they would be much smaller but with more volcanoes. Hypothetically (using a bit of alternate history-geology thing in mind), there would be many more islands but all of them would also be smaller than the current islands now. If I used the latter, it would be 68.6%, still smaller but alt least a little more massive than say at 58.8%.

          I have, however, heard of the infamous Kea and Loa trend (this subject might be in the boundaries of what Hector covers) and, as far as I know, the Kea trend goes at 8.6 cm/yr, where as the Loa trend goes at 10.6 cm/yr in terms of propagation rates (found this out in the article “Modelling volcano growth on the Island of Hawaii: Deep-water perspectives” ), but I have no idea how this will apply to something that is much faster than even the trends but is it possible something like this could arise.

          (As far as I know, they appeared 2-3 MYA after a shift in direction of the Pacific Plate and that something similar to this happened to other islands in the whole Hawaiian-Emperor sea-chain )

          • Forget about that. The ting doesn’t like me to link to a photo on Wikimedia.

          • p

            Hope I “cheated” the system (by adding an extra letter to the URL, I think).

          • Never mind. Delete this whole chain of reply spams which I was trying to link to a photo. My apologies for my spamming. Seems the system worked I guess.

  20. IO does not have an Atmosphere and that means its no convective cooling on IO .. so lava flows cool very slowly on IO Despite being around – 150 C radiation cooling is a slow process. … this coud explain why lava crust remain hot and flexible on IO longer than it does on Earth and coud explain why pahoehoe is much more common on IO .. But Ionian lavas coud also be even hotter and more fluid than Earths hottest sillicate lavas

    Lava fountains and lava channels on IO takes much longer to develop their shiney dark crusts or dark tephra curtains than Hawaiian do because of lack of convective cooling on IO

    • Albert.. perhaps you coud imagine
      Lava flows flowing out on IO s surface
      On Earth They quickly develop a grey skinn .. even seconds after air exposure

      On IO it takes many minutes for that to happen ? No convective cooling on IO .. lava channels on IO must be glowing more than on Earth

  21. Ingenuity update. Bad news and good news. The bad news is that Flight 29 hasn’t happened yet as Ingenuity’s primary inclinometer appears to have failed (possibly due to cold cycling). The good news is that backup accelerometers in the IMU (Inertial Measurement Unit) are functional and a software patch is being uplinked to switch to these sensors.

    Keeping Our Sense of Direction: Dealing With a Dead Sensor

    Over the past several sols on Mars, the Ingenuity team has been busy recommissioning the helicopter for flight, going through a series of activities that include preflight checkout of sensors and actuators and a high-speed spin of the rotor. These activities have revealed that one of the helicopter’s navigation sensors, called the inclinometer, has stopped functioning. A nonworking navigation sensor sounds like a big deal – and it is – but it’s not necessarily an end to our flying at Mars.

    Impersonating the Inclinometer

    Ingenuity’s sensor suite provides some redundancy when it comes to sensing attitude on the ground. The IMU contains accelerometers, which – just like the accelerometers within the inclinometer – can be used to estimate the initial attitude. Unlike the inclinometer, the IMU is not purpose-built for sensing static orientation, so its initial attitude estimates will generally be somewhat less accurate. However, we believe an IMU-based initial attitude estimate will allow us to take off safely and thus provides an acceptable fallback that will allow Ingenuity to resume flying.

    Ingenuity needs to make Flight 29 fairly soon to position itself to stay in radio contact with Perseverance.

    • Amazing flyover 3D model of backshell/parachute crash site by Simeon Schmauß constructed from images from both colour and navcam images. Well worth a look at link. Also 3d interactive model.

      Simeon Schmauß @stim3on Jun 5

      On Sol 414 the Ingenuity mars helicopter scouted the crash site of the parachute and backshell that brought it and the rover safely through the atmosphere before it was jettisoned and crashed on the surface.
      Interactive version on @Sketchfab

      Also worth a look at Simon’s pinned tweet. It’s even about a volcano 🙂

      Simeon Schmauß @stim3on Dec 20, 2021

      Did I ever mention how awesome telephoto video of Earth from Space is? In this one I assembled from images taken by @NASA Astronauts aboard @Space_Station
      you can see the explosive eruption of Sarychev Volcano back in 2009, sending a Plume of ash over 10km up in the Sky.

  22. Yep, I am back in this VC Bar and, in my absence, I have built about 22 volcanoes (so far) over a distance of about 560 kilometers over a span of about 4.74 million years in my world. Looks I have been a bit productive in my building but it is only beginning. As a matter of fact, I only have magma supply rates listed so far and I haven’t even completed the list yet. The thing is here below:

    (And also as a note, do not email me except when asking permission to view my work. It’ll feel a bit awkward when someone does email me about their thoughts on the work.)

    For a bit of context, the volcanoes are formed by a hotspot 80% the power of the Hawaiian hotspot (I was thinking about equivalent to the Hawaiian hotspot, but I kinda refuted that) over a area of plate that moves about 11.8 cm/yr. The grey boundaries represent fracture zones that, so far as I heard, act like boundaries for the “blocks” (i.e. the volcanoes that share a distinct shoreline break), which I have from the Hawaii PODD channel on Youtube. Link on them talking about fracture zones here:

    Also, I have color-coded the volcanic complexes on the graph, too. The hotspot’s trail, however, would be a bit different than the plate motion direction, which it is going a bit more to the east.

    The process in which I did this is that, on a sketch app, I scaled the size of the hotspot, put on zones of the hotspot based on melt supply rates, added a graph upon the hotspot relative to scale and drew nearly-straight lines through it, measured the distance made through the zones, calculated the years based on the speed of the plate and rounded them up to fit into the graph (i.e. if it was 34,005, then it would 40,000 (i.e. 4 boxes on the graph), and it is confusing, but hopefully it helps).

    The light red line at the 568 mark is the beginning of the 2nd hotspot (120% of the Hawaiian hotspot), but I am particularly a little busy with the volcanoes made by the 1st but I do want to know a bit of hindsight of what’s to come when the volcanoes arrive at that 2nd hotspot.

    Albert earlier did say that the intrusive magma would re-melt and that it’ll be explosive at first, but exactly how is what I am wondering about: is the old volcanoes going to reactivate and use the same magma systems as they would when they were formed on the 1st hotspot or is it that totally new volcanoes are going to emerge out of the corpses of their supporting ancestors or both, I just don’t know for sure. For now, however, I’ll just focus on the functions of the 1st hotspot before moving on to the 2nd hotspot.

    (the graph only goes to 1535 slots, or up to 15.35 million years because it would take forever to do the whole chain, but besides that, healthy criticism welcome.)

    • Correction: it seems that I might’ve mistaken. They said that fracture zones could help with volcanism, but I could say that the “boundaries” are crust that isn’t fractured and that, in some way, could slightly decrease the chances of a volcano forming.

  23. What are your thoughts on the current state of the AMOC in light of the recent papers published that have suggested we’re more rapidly approaching its “state change” tipping point than previously believed. The AMOC varies between a fast / active state and a slow / inactive state where the current is pulled further south and is generally less forceful. The Younger Dryas is thought to be the most recent excursion into the slower state.

    This video is a good overview of the most recent papers. Forgive the length and overall dry approach / speaking voice, but it’s quite a thorough overview.

    I know the IPCC put out a statement several years ago that they had no expectations of any severe disruptions to the thermohaline circulation in the next several centuries, but this was largely before the most recent research suggesting we’re quite briskly approaching the tipping point.

  24. Fun question! What woud an eruption look like for a Brown Eagle?

    One reason We humans can Enjoy a volcanic eruption is because We are the only primate group ( Simians ) that have full color – vision and the only mammal group that haves a high resolution Foveola: Human eyes are the mammalian trys on bird eyes. Humans and other Simian primates have pretty good eyesight.

    But I have ALWAYS wondered .. what woud Fagradalshraun look like for a Diurnal Bird of Prey? The animals kingdoms best eyes..What woud a lava flow look like for a dinurnal Eagle? They have superior color – vision ( even much better than ours ) and perhaps up to 8 times our resolution as well. … with even more closely packed cones and ability to see further into the reds and ultraviolet

    Are an eruption super – vivivd for these animals?

    A dog and cat .. can never Enjoy an eruption
    They lack the foveola and color cones

    • An eruption must look fantastic for a Diurnal Eagle! With souch good eyesight and colorvison

      Perhaps Chad the animal expert can visualize 🙂

      I guess Eagles see darker and richer and deeper color tones than we Humans do .. must be incredible

    • I Myself seen an eruptions upclose on Kilaūea and Etna .. that glowing Orange is something that I Will never forget … its mesmorizing! And only possible to Enjoy through a Simian Primate eye

      So Whats about the Raptors..

      • Off topic, but Jesper I’m so excited for your Nyiragongo article!!

        I don’t know tons about that volcano, just mainly what I’ve read from your comments over the past year.

        I’m super excited to take a more in depth dive on it!

    • No Idea What an lava eruption woud look like for an Eagle .. but certainly pretty awsome

      For a dog or cat .. lavas are brown to yellowish Brown .. as they lack the red cones and they dont have High resolution vision

  25. I have this odd idea that I was thinking of, constantly: what if we created our own volcanoes?

    Of course, the idea sound quite ridiculous and childish (I feel kinda ashamed for letting this out for some reason), but I have done it for quite a while and, whilst some complete, others not so much. It is pretty much a time waster for me, drawing on a app on my phone, adding layer after layer by age by age, and lava after lava, and pyroclastics after pyroclastics… you get the idea, until I am quite satisfied with my product. How I did it was by choosing a color to start with and progress with the colors, like an age progression of eruptions. For explosive eruptions and landslides, they would change in brightness and saturation.

    Hotspot volcanoes (particularly of the Hawaiian kind) are the most enjoyable because, well, I am amused by the geological history of the Hawaiian Islands. I did do some non-hotspots too, some I am kinda proud of, whilst others I got bored with over time. Of course, I had an idea to have some sort of competition or show and tell our volcanic creations and it really got to the point where I was thinking about adding your volcanoes to my world I am working on (but that might be a bit selfish).

    P.S. I have no idea what else I had to say as an ending.

  26. “A dog and cat .. can never Enjoy an eruption, They lack the foveola and color cones”. Ah but a dog or cat has a superior sense of smell that few birds (except vultures and a few others ) enjoy. My dog, a West Highland Terrier has a nose that leaves me in awe of his abilities. At night, he’ll sit up, sniff the air and go to the closed window and push the curtains aside. He knows animals are going walk about but I see and smell nothing. He is a creature of his nose, his hearing is also acute, so what he lacks in eyesight he makes up for with other senses. He enjoys a good skunk, so the sulfur smell of lava would probably be equally exciting. I have watched him smell under every shrub and follow a trail until he comes back with a vole or shrew in mouth. In conclusion, a dog or a cat would enjoy an eruption in their own way.

  27. Long time no lurk, but I just found this splendid animation about the Mount Pelee eruption. Think anime not simulation.

  28. Hi, I’m Dan. From Baltimore.

    I’ve been a longtime lurker for the last 4 years, probably long past time I should’ve said hello. I’ve learned a lot on here and I appreciate this place for that.

  29. ?format=jpg&width=960

    New Photos of Jupiters Atmosphere
    I have always wondered what it woud look like floating in the Atmosphere of Jupiter with a high tech Hot Hydrogen Zeppelin

    Jupiters Atmosphere extends way above the clouds as well up to 1000 kilometers above the upper ammonia cirrus as well Althrough thats difficult to see because of Jupiters size

    I guess Jupiters sky color depends of how high up you are in the Atmosphere, hydrogen will scatter blue light. At 0,01 Bar You will probaly see a black blue day sky and at 0,1 bar it Maybe very dark blue. Deeper down at 1 bar you may see a marine blue earthlike sky at day.

    Further down You are in the cloud layers and visibility woud be limited, But If you coud be in a place without the upper ammonia cirrus ( 2 bar Earth Atmospheres ) just above the orange clouds ) you may see a pale light blue dayskies with more light scattering. It woud perhaps look alot like being in an aircraft on Earth at 30 000 feet I guess

    The upper ammonia cirrus layers woud be a beautyful sight If you was 50 km below it Looking up towards the edge of souch a white belt .. it woud cast a shadow on the ammonia sulfide clouds below.

    Jupiter also haves gigantic cumulunimbus towers that push up below from 5 atmospheres all way up to 0,01 bar level with their anvil cirrus blowing off in the cold upper atmosphere, souch a cumulunimbus coud be visible for 1000 s of km around it.. knowing how large Jupiter is

    Galileo Atmospheric probe fell into a local cloud free dry abyss with dry downdrafts and No Cloud formation.. and had clear skies until it was crushed at 12 Earth atmospheres ( 12 bars ) perhaps it woud even see a red or orange dayskies?

    Floating In Jupiters Atmosphere woud be a disturbing sight knowing its no surface at all below the clouds

    Evening on Jupiter woud be spectacular with the rest of cloud sea in darkness and the high cumulunimbus still lit by the evening sun


    Interesting article I came across about how Chicxulub was likely a fragment of a disrupted LPC (Long Period Comet), and how a large comet breaking apart as it crosses too close to the sun can increase the odds of large impact events beyond what is otherwise considered probable based on calculations of the comet and asteroid populations.

    It’s a little technical but extremely informative, especially with respect to large impactor probabilities.

    • I’ve been on something of an impact event research kick lately. Since Jesper brought up Chicxulub some months back and set my mind to the subject.

      Was recently reading about the Australasian Strewn Field from within one mya and how the culprit crater was never found (with a suggestion that the crater may by chance reside under a raised ancient volcanic plateau in Laos).

      Such an interesting topic. Would love some recommendations for other papers or maybe lesser known events to check out. I hasn’t heard of the Australasian Strewn Field before.

  31. Thought this was one for the bar.

    I’m thinking about a change in career, as so many have post-Covid. Life is short.
    Volcanology is something i’m potentially looking at studying, Keele University run an undergrad course in it.
    This is obviously quite a big decision to make, given that it would mean selling my house/getting the mortgage of my back, abandoning a pretty stable and decent job at a non-profit company where I get a pay rise every year, moving down the country to somewhere I’ve never even been and also going back into full time education for the first time in 9 years.

    What I want to know about really are the job prospects (and likelihood of getting into my dream job, which is field volcanologist), what specifically I might need to do to get into that sort of job, and also whether it is worth me doing an online GCSE Geography course (about 150 hours, £400+, can probably do it in 4-6 months) prior to applying.
    There are options for 3yr, 3yr + internship and 3yr + work abroad also.

    Hopefully there may be people on here who can give some answers.

  32. ”The Line” have started construction!
    Omg gosh it will be INSANE If they
    acually manage to pull this off

    But probaly just another project that will dissapear in in the desert winds ..

    But who knows

    • It is going to take them decades to build it though, and given who is building it there is a high chance the place will never be completed if SA doesnt go hard on renewables to cover their doomed oil business. They are a monarchy with more free money than Elon Musk, basically the only place who actually are in a position to ignore short term economics and just do it…

      I also have a feeling it will be very exclusive, but then things may change.

    • Right going To take decades ..

      And likley never Will be completed

      Saudiarabia are not generaly good at finishing buildings on time – table. Many of their other ongoing building projects are slow as hell as well

      But still exciting!

    • Apparently the Saudi city Dhahran
      Have the worlds most uncomfortable summers .. well over 40 C in shadow and super high humidity so feels Perhaps like 80 C outside, Making it dangerous for brain to go outside

      Paleocene – Eocene Thermal Maximum was much More evaporation and humidity as well than today and more rainfall and warmer oceans

      Perhaps the entire tropical zone during the PETM was as hot and humid as Dhahran is today? PTEM was a jungle planet and not a desert
      Mammals also got smaller because of the heat .. PETM must also have have been insanely rainy

  33. Perhaps Albert knows: will the Red Giant sun destroy Jupiters Moon system?

    Well the ices will vaporize from Europa, Ganymede leaving the rocky stuff behind

    Will What left behind of Europa and Ganymede still be massive enough for a tidal thug of war?

    Will get pretty hot in the Jupiter system from radiation perhaps 700 C But Jupiter will be able to retain its gases. Will there be enough Rocky materials left in Europa and Ganymede to continue the tidal thug ? I think so.

    The stellar wind from the Red Giant Maybe a problem for the moons and they Maybe fall into Jupiter from drag? Althrough a Red Giant will have an extremely low density wind

    • Is that is correct ?

      Red Giant sun wont ruin Jovian system ?

      Enough rocky materials to still power the tidal thug war with the other moons water is vaporized?

    • Chad since you know everything
      There should still be enough mass in the jovian Moon system to drive the tidal thug of war even when you remove the ices?

    • Albert definitely better to answer this 🙂

      I would not be surprised though if all of the ice melted off the moons that Io would be the biggest one, given it will probably not change in size at all, it is already a rocky object with only trace volatiles. Europa wont get much smaller either, despite appearences it is basically a rocky object with only the outer 100-150 km being ice (~300 km of its diameter of 3120 km, so 2800 km or so), Europa is though already smaller than Io, which is just shy of 3650 km wide.
      Ganymede might become half as big as it is now though in diameter, if it loses all of its ice. So that wouldmake it smaller than either Europa or Io. Callisto probably is the same.

      But ask Albert, these are only my guesses and I could be way off.

      • Woud there still be enough tidal forces with the water mass vaporized ??

      • Maybe we should just try the experiment .. it is a form of extreme global warming, after all, and there seems to be some doubt among part of our electorate and politicians whether the laws of physics (thermodynamics, to be specific) apply to them. But then again, it doesn’t seem like the results from our current experiment with the Earth make much difference to opinions of some!

        The moons will become too hot for frozen ice to exist. They will develop dense atmospheres, however their gravity is insufficient to keep hold of this for long. So they will slowly let their water escape into space, as some kind of enormous comets. Water entrained in the rock inside is safe, just like water in the bottom of the Earth’s crust and upper mantle is happily stable. I would expect all four moons to end up with about the same mass, as they have about the amount of rock, just different amounts of ices. Tidal effects will not change and the orbits should also remain stable. But Jupiter may have a dense dust ring for a while.

      • Yes, no reason why it shouldn’t. You are thinking of tides in the sea. These are so-called solid tides, tidal forces acting on the entire moon. Jupiter has a lot of gravity.

      • Looks like IO will remain a volcanic powerhouse

        And Jupiter will keep most of its hydrogen during the Red Giant phase?

        Jupiter haves an immensely powerful magnetic field as well so wil deflect most of the eroding winds from the Red Giant

      • My addiction to IO have No limits and cannot wait until Juno visits it… as Albert can sourely figure out.. Im crazy in it

        100 s of Mega volcanoes all erupting at Once

        Hopes Juno gets there as fast as possible

  34. One of the old 1950 s nuclear tests in the Pacific. Thousands times larger than the Hiroshima. For any person thats where 100 years old in 1950 s for them these where truely the weapons of the gods really. Really insane weapons thats for soure…

    And where there any persons that where 110 years old on Earth when these pacific tests where done then they woud have been born in 1840 s. So a real time traveller

    There is no limit how large you can make these things either. A really insane Mega nuke coud be built as an unmanned remotely controlled submarine and have a yeild of a 100 Tsar Bombas

    • Wow I loves the lower photo with the fireball enclosed and glowing through a cloud condensation cap. For those that love fluid dynamics and condensation cloud physics then nuclear tests are paradise

    • Woud be fun with a fantasy test with the same yeild of Chixculub, both where bad.. But hard to know what a Mega Nuke test woud have for effect on the atmosphere. I know that after 10X Tsar Bomba you dont really get a mushroom cloud at all since the atmosphere is simply pushed away at the detonation site. So hard to know what a test thats way larger than Tsar Bomba woud really look like.

    • Also If 10 km3 of the solar core was somehow placed on Earth and depressurized.. that woud be a bad Idea as well I think ..

      Really needs a Nuke Simulator with all the fluid dynamics and condensation and atmospheric physcis..I have endless curiosity

  35. Carl, this is the EV would get if money wasnt an issue 🙂

    Whatever EV can reliably drive 1000 km and not break the bank, that is what I will get. Range is only for piece of mibd, and because I cant afford to get one for at least 4 years anyway, by which time I expect the relevant number will be available. My guess is the Model 3 long range, as long as it isnt an SUV I dont care though…

  36. I dont trust IQ tests at all
    I cannot pass even a simplest IQ test.
    Yet I do haves highest grades in almost everything from schools. So these tests cannot be accurate really. I really dont trust them at all, and many experts agree with that… useless tests. My parents that are doctors: and cannot beat them either … so shit tests really

    These tests cannot be accurate really right?

    • They arent, its a general average of every trait a person has. Nearly everyone will have high and low, and average in the middle. But this doesnt have any importance, if you have one trait that would give you and IQ of 200 and another that is 30 then it averages in the middle and gives the impression of being no different.

      There is also possibly an unethical side, Africans usually get lower scores all things equal, and considering the prevalent views at the time…

      • I have a bit of this saying that there is no such thing as stupid (although, I have seen some things that would make it a bit of a stretch to the least) and that people are just simply smart in a particular subject or have a range of skills they are good at. We are just really good amateur volcanologists but when it comes to say anything complexly medical, most of us would crack under pressure (though this comparison might be a bit controversial).

    • The fact that you can train for IQ tests tells you everything you need to know.

    • I Agree They cannot be accurate
      If you are a medical doctor like my parents.. and cannot pass a simple test .. then that says something

      Or Maybe Im so stupid, that I dont understand how stupid I really are .. 🙂


    Currently something I am doing for fun right now. It is basically a really young shield volcano (about 2 km3 at the time of this comment) with the main vent at 57.054 degrees north and 111.619 degrees west (essentially at the Mildred Lake oil sands north of Fort McMurray), but the only slight problem is the shape of the volcano and how it is affected by the pre-eruption terrain (like I got a general idea but I will get confused at times), so there is that. The graph will take long to load because the age goes by days instead of years, so that.

    • Any graphics How it woud look like ?
      You created a Hawaii like hotspot before that I wants to see

      • Sadly, not yet, though like i said, I have a general idea but not a specific one (I.e. a current look of the mines or the way the terrain would affect the volcano, etc), but I think it would be 50 meters tall and roughly 6.25 kilometers in radius if it were on flat ground, but the lava lake dynamics of it may make it steeper and therefore taller but smaller in radius.

      • But, I do think it would be best compared to either Maunaulu in Hawaii (in 1969 to 1974) or Theistareykjarbunga in Hawaii. I pretty much took some info from, I think it was either Chad’s or Hector’s, that article on shield volcanoes, except instead of making it a one-time thing (monogenetic), I made it erupt multiple times (polygenetic).

    • Shape will tend to be conical even in irregular terrain. The repeated overflows from the top will build a conical structure around the vent, although sometimes the shield will develop satellite vents and this may affect its morphology. Distal flows will tend to fill valleys and low-lying areas. Something else that might be important is the development of a lava tube system, the lava tube will direct lava into a particular area, and build very thick flows with rootless shields even. Santiago Island in the Galapagos has two young shields built on the sloping flanks of the main shield of Santiago

      • This is good information, but may I ask at what emission rates would be favorable to form a rootless shield and for how long?

        • Kilauea made lots of them in 2007 and 2008, effusion rate then was very high at 10-15 m3/s, compared with 4 m3/s average for Pu’u O’o. So that might be a good number.

          Some shields that formed above a magma chamber or similar, those might be a lot faster though. There are some examples at Fremrinamar in Iceland, and the Pu’u O Keokeo shield on the SWRZ of Mauna Loa. These are massive eruptions, the latter is maybe the biggest single eruption in Hawaii in the Holocene. The flow fields are mostly a’a, but are fed by huge tubes not channels. The vent is also usually a spatter or cinder cone not a lava lake, and had frequent and probably powererful fountaining just without a wide channel outlet. Pu’u O’o in the 1980s was probably visually similar in some ways although these other eruptions were more continuous. The 2021 La Palma eruption would have been like this too if the eruption was not so gas rich with tall fountains. So picture a less explosive version of that which lasts for as long as a decade without slowing down 🙂

        • I’m not sure what emission rates would be best. I think as long as the shield eruption sustains its effusion then you get development of lava tubes and rootless shields. In contrast unsteady episodic eruptions would be bad at building rootless shields.

          A great example is Harrat Khaybar, in Saudi Arabia, which has two young volcanic shields which are among the best preserved in the world. However these two shields are completely different from each other.

          One shield makes a large conical structure that is about 200-300 meters tall, its volcanism seems to have been highly episodic. It looks like it started with more sustained activity (which is the normal thing for eruptions), building some short lava tubes, no more than 10 km in length, but towards the later part of the eruption the activity had become highly episodic (probably paroxysms) and kept piling up rapid overflows from its vent. Building the spectacular cone.

          The other shield is about 50 meters tall or less. There seem to have been minor gushers or gas pistoning events in its main vent that overflowed repeatedly, but make a very small portion of the eruption. Its activity seems to have been largely sustained so it grew two massive lava tube systems, the longest 56 kilometres in length. Rootless shields 15-20 meters tall grew in many places along these two tubes.

          I don’t know what factors made the two eruptions so different. They may have happened in quick succession judging from their similar state of preservation. Maybe the first eruption had a high enough supply to sustain the rare paroxysmal activity once the conduit had been eroded enough. The second eruption may have had lessened supply and was incapable of transitioning into the episodic activity? But it could also have been due to topography, given that the tall shield formed over flat ground, and that the one with the long lava tubes developed on sloping ground.

          • I’m thinking that magma supply might indeed control the activity of shield volcanoes. This could have also been the reason the Fagradalsfjall eruption ended. The shields in the Reykjanes Peninsula are mostly built from sustained activity, with large fields of pahoehoe lava, they do not really build tall structures. The eruption of Fagradalsfjall however became episodic, it would have constructed a large tall conical structure through such activity, and such structures seem absent in the Reykjanes Peninsula. So it was out of place. The large shields of Iceland, like Skjaldbreiður, or Trolladyngja, create massive structures up to 500 meters tall, probably constructed through alternation of episodic and sustained activity, and nowhere else in the world do such tall monogenetic tholeiite shield volcanoes occur. The largest are located mostly near Langjokull and near Askja. Probably a very large magma supply is what allows these massive monogenetic volcanoes to grow.

          • After looking at Mauna Loa I think the big shields in Iceland might be of similar construction, being eruptions that are fed by deep magma chambers not the base rate of supply. This actually also provides a way for them to stop too, if they were fed at the rate of magma generation then they would not stop easily, many are not on rifts like Pu’u O’o was.

            It would really be quite something spectacular to have one of these active today. A lava geyser, repeatedly flooding a vast area with lava for years on repeat. It would be like Pu’u O’o in the mid 80s except the eruptions would be every other day not once a month 🙂
            Askja might be the best place. It is a caldera but there seems to be a particularly extensive deeper magma system there judging by the existence of satellite volcanoes quite some distance outside the rift zone. That and the activity at Herdubreid, which is either a part of Askja or the quakes are flexure quakes from the inflation there. If a massive deep system exists and a conduit taps into that then there could be quite the massive eruption.

        • Sometimes however they may transition into lava tubes/rootless shield activity later. The two shields in Santiago Island both developed into episodic paroxysmal activity very early on, and only later they starting producing lava tube activity. There are no large rootless shields but the tubes directed all the effusion towards a particular flank of the volcanoes, producing large fields of inflated pahoehoe lava.

          • Interesting there, but when will such a volcano have its sort of magmatic system (I.e. magma chambers or rift zones), if it isn’t monogenetic.

            So far, I have calculated the magmatic growth rate of the volcano to be around 0.13 km3/yr, but the supply rate as a whole is about 0.2 km3/yr, so I just assumed that it might’ve been stored in its own little chamber.

          • On the same note, it would be interesting to see how this fictional eruption would go. There are ponds and pits at where the eruption would be and is in between two river basins.

            It would be somewhat similar to Maunaulu as it fills the ‘Alae pit crater and forms a rootless shield except there are man-made features being filled. The nearby Athabasca River would be dammed by the lava flows to create a new lake and maybe flood communities downstream from the eruption. I could only imagine…

        • It isnt really clear because some lava nearby is probably part of the same eruption but is not included as such. But it was at least as big as Pu’u O’o for just the named Keokeo flows. The upper limit when including all potential flows is probably over 10 km3 given how much lava goes offshore in these sorts of eruptions. I will try and get a more accurate number, but this eruption was enormous.

          There is also the Pu’u Ohohia flows, which are the final stage. This was a flood lava eruption from the west side of the shield, it was probably also a caldera collapse of Mauna Loa. Based on Hectors numbers of the Hapaimanu flows, the very similar sized Ohohia flows are probably somewhere around 2-3 km3 on their own. So this was an eruption to rival Laki although it was a lot longer probably close to 10 years. The eruptions took place somewhere around 650-700 AD.

          I guess, because Mauna Loa is so tall, when it is dominant it can potentially form magma chambers that are too deep to collapse to the surface and form calderas, and still have these erupt above sea level. Kilauea might have eruptions like this on the Puna Ridge, but not on land generally.

      • Pu’u O Keokeo shield looks very much like the tube channel system at Theistareykjarbunga.. so yes lasted for some time at eruption rates higher than pahoehoe

    • Fun fact. Underwater shield volcanoes are shaped like pancakes. A bunch of shield volcanoes near Niihau Island.

    • Anyways, on the chart, I have added the state of activity (I.e. Paroxysms or lava lakes), whether the paroxysms produce only scoria or if ash is in there, the conditions sufficient to form rootless shields (I would say a minimum of 20 days might be enough to at least form a rootless shield) and the conditions of the lava lake (if it has one). Critique it and comment to me.


    The map of the eruption at the Mildred Lake mine site. The total volume of this eruption is about 480,000,000 m³ of lava and lasted for 346 days, starting on Jan.19th, 2023.

    It started as four fissures, with each new one going west until on day 66, as the activity centered around a main vent. The reason why it didn’t cover much area is because it had to fill a deep pit mine. It began to calm down on day 117 and turned into a shield volcano type eruption. So, there’s that.


    The volcano, which was thought to be monogenetic, erupted again on March 8th, 2024, which was smaller than the first eruption and produced ~134,000,000 m³ of lava in 265 days but only filled the first two pits and was not of significance.

    The mine has been closed and, since it is currently confined within a mine pit, has been a tourist attraction and a playground for volcanologists. The studies have shown that the magma is primitive in composition, perhaps coming from an astonishing depth of 200 kilometers at the base of the lithosphere.

    After the second eruption, it didn’t take long for another eruption to take place, a third of a year later on March 16th, 2025. It was almost 3 times the amount of the previous eruption (354,000,000 m³) within 539 days an completely buried the second eruption lavas.

    The eruption in question resulted in the formation of 5 rootless shields, either by lava tubes or lava within the buried minepits. The question then is how will the volcano evolve?

  40. I have a bit of a question about Iceland: what would happen if the ice continues to melt, with climate change happening, what affect will this have on the volcanoes, like independently? (I think that they might become more active but more summit bound rather than erupting on the rift zones, but I could be wrong).

    • The ice will be gone in some 200 years from now. Eruptions from volcanoes that are currently ice-covered will be less explosive: Katla, Grimsvotn for instance. The ice affects them a lot at the moment. Iceland as a whole will rise up. That is already happening as the weight of the ice is going down. Underneath the thickest glaciers, there will be some decompression melt. Be prepared for the possibility for another Laki from Vatnajokul (maybe not quite that size) over the next few centuries. During the melt, surrounding areas can get quite wet. Expect a few new lakes to form. Any eruptions through those lakes will starts explosively

      • That is quite interesting, but I am curious about how much magma would come up for each volcano when the whole ice cap melts?


      Some maps of what the subglacial topography of Iceland looks like, to give an idea. There will be some deep lakes in the calderas of Bardarbunga and Oraefajokull, and probably also Kverkfjoll, Grimsvotn might not though, it does now but I dont know if the lake is actually contained by the bedrock or if the glacier is what holds it in, the caldera looks open on one side.

      Big eruptions though, my picks are a flood lava from Bardarbunga down at Veidovotn, probably in the next century just on expected rifting cycles in the area, although unless it erupts under a lake this is unlikely to be a lot bigger in scale than Holuhraun, definitely not another Laki.
      Second is a slightly greater possibility of a large lava shield forming at Langjokull or Bardarbunga, this is what I want to see happen personally although odds are fairly slim 🙁

      I guess both can happen too but maybe best not to get hopes up…

      • How does the rifting cycle work? I never really kinda understood how it works or how this affects the volcanoes of Iceland.

        • Its the idea that the plates move apart continuously so rifting should be a recurring thing at any location. It isnt really a rule more a general trend. Veidivotn is maybe the best example, there have been many eruptions along a fairly narrow area, from the size of Holuhraun going up to the Thjorsahraun eruption that was the same scale as Laki and Eldgja, and the biggest of those 3 by volume and total area covered.

          Before 1000 years ago there were eruptions from Veidivotn about every 250 years. In the past millennium or so we got Laki and Eldgja which were further east, so only one Veidivotn eruption in the time period, in 1477. But generally this area that has been the ‘dead zone’ here a long way back, it has a large rifting event every 250-300 years. So the next one is quite likely in the 21st century.

          It got called the dead zone because it has few earthquakes compared to the volcanoes. This was interpreted as the area being magma to very shallow depth. My personal idea is the complete opposite, it us solid and the magma comes from closer to the central volcanoes on either side. It is silent in my opinion because the area is presently a ‘blind rift’ that doesnt move really at all until a lot of strain is accumulated. It is the rift zone equivalent of a megathrust earthquake if you will.

          • Oh, when someone says something about the volcanic cycle of Iceland, it is splitting bit by bit from the south and progressing north and as that goes the volcanoes would take turns being active from south to north, but that explains well enough.

      • Bardarbunga woud be a spectacular right Ice free a 13 km wide and 800 m deep caldera. Perhaps so large and deep that whole cloud systems coud form inside

        • I think actually though, the caldera of Bardarbunga is probably going to be one of the last places to melt, it is in a caldera but eruptions actually within the caldera are pretty rare and I am not aware of it being intensely hydrothermal, not to the extent of it being able to melt all of that ice. The broad ice sheet inbetween the volcanoes will melt probably in the next 100 years but the high bedrock of the east coast, and the summits of the tall volcanoes, will have ice for a lot longer.

  41. – “normal” map – fault lines map – lava flow age map

    This is a map of Hawaii, 500,000 years from present (the future is unknown, but that is kinda how I see it, so it is up to anyones interpretation), of which the climate back then is when it is recovering from a future ice ice age, with Maunaloa being the highest peak of the island, standing at 4,833 meters tall, but in a similar situation as Mauna Kea now.

    Kīlauea, on the other hand, is on the verge of a post-shield stage and, along with Maunaloa, are covered in ice caps, which is potential for ice-related hazards. They still erupt on the rift zones, albeit less frequently. It had a landslide at South Kona about 300,000 to 400,000 years ago.

    Kama’ehuakanaloa (Lōihi) is by far the most active of the island, having emerged out of the sea 350,000-400,000 years ago. The activity levels are potentially greater than that of Kīlauea today and yet it seems it hasn’t reached its peak in its shield phase yet.

    Offshore lies Kekeiki’a’Ailā’au (‘Ailā’au’s son), a new seamount that emerged around 200,000-300,000 years ago. Of course, this is all speculation but it I’d fun to think about.

    • Looks good.

      I think in the relevant time period though Mauna Loa would be a lot less active than it appears in your picture though, it also appears to be at its maximum elevation today give or take 200 meters, in a half million years I would expect it to be subsided under its weight and also less tall as Kilauea grows on its side and pushes it down, which is what happened to Hualalai underneath Mauna Loa, and Kohala underneath Mauna Kea, in both cases of which the former summit was even buried by the younger edifice.
      Kilauea at this time will probably be at a very similar stage in its life as Mauna Loa is today, probably the high point of the island. Kama’ehuakanaloa might also already be a lot more advanced too than estimated here, it and Kilauea are a lot closer in age to each other than either is to Mauna Loa, and both are at present believed to be in the same stage of evolution, Kilauea is ahead but only by 50,000 years or so. The main difference is the depth of magma generation is presently less centered on the plume head at Loihi so the partial melting is slightly less and the magma more alkaline, and that Kilauea happened t oform in shallow water or on land so probably wasnt really ever underwater that much to begin with, just a rifting fissure on the shallow coastal plain of the young Mauna Loa. Loihi was unlucky to form way deeper down, and that Kilauea has not grown southwards really at all to help build up the area.
      I imagine the future relationship between the two is probably going to be more competitive than the present interaction between Kilauea and Mauna Loa.

      Just on how the other volcanoes interact too, the dominant rift zone of Loihi will be its south rift, unobstructed and downslope. The north rift will but up against Kilauea and likely already dows, and Kilauea will eventually be forced to grow to the south which will potentially be quite a rapid process in the context of geological time. The surface expressions of the rifts tend to completely avoid the central volcanoes. So Kilauea will probably dominate the island entirely in the east, and the island itself will extend further south, dominated by Loihi, with the north rift of Loihi and the southwest rift of Kilauea being minor structures, or even just a field of radial vents of both.
      Mauna Loa also might collapse into the ocean, I made a similar map where I included this event, and it has happened before but not all the volcanoes collapse after growing, so a bit of a wild card.

      Overall though great map, and excellent visuals 🙂

    • Fabulous Map! And you sourely put in a lot of work with the lava flows. Looking realistic. I imagine long episodes of pahoehoe sheild building with lava flowing into the ocean for decades, centruies..even millienia and huge lava lakes bubble away at Loihis summit caldera. Near constant episodes of sheild building are sometimes interrupted with near Laki scale rift eruptions, and sometimes large violent VEI 5 basaltic plinian eruptions from the summit caldera.

      You clearly too haves fascination and knowledge of Hawaiian volcanism this was an excellent Map

      • Yep, Kamaʻehuakanaloa is likely to have near-Laki type eruptions on its eastern rift zone, albeit rare because it is between an older volcano and a newer one, so it’ll take a lot of pressure to wrench it open and, when it does, it’ll be established then until it is over. Shields do occur there, too, but maybe more common there as the rift will slowly close due to the pressure from nearby Kīlauea and have low magma amounts.

        The southern rift zone, on the other hand, will be more active as it is unobstructed. Matter of fact, a Nyiragongo-type event might occur there, as it’ll continue to open until the shallow supply is low. Non-drainage fissures could occur there, too but more common up-rift and nearer to the summit.

      • Very nice indeed 🙂 detailed
        Now make a map of a jesperian scale rouge volcano … 🙂

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