The VC Bar

Welcome to the Volcano Café bar, a place for all things on or off topic and inane ramblings. There has been a need of late to find a place better suited to various theories, long comments and enthusiasm. This page will be less moderated than the main article pages and cleared out every month (this may change depending on use).

Have fun and don’t forget to tip the barman 😉

3,587 thoughts on “The VC Bar

  1. One EQ question.
    I am looking on Raspberryshake stations site. They have 2 live streaming:
    – M/S
    – Frequency Hz (between 0-50)
    How can I read data that I sort eq from other noises.
    At the moment Iooking R93E9 (Croatia) and RCF63 (Slovenija)

    Happy holidays to all of you. And many thanks for all your writing.

  2. Tnx.
    Do you maybe know some similar chat about EQ?
    I really want to learn read this data.
    Now I have oportunity because seismic activity is a little bit higer.

  3. The Swiss Matterhorn is swinging!

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X21005513?via%3Dihub

    Uh, it is headbanging afew micrometers every two seconds…. 😄

    A nice illusrtation in the article here:
    https://www.slf.ch/de/2021/12/das-schwingende-matterhorn.html#tabelement1-tab2

    Most intriguing is how it sounds!
    Speed is 80x.

    https://www.slf.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/WSL/News_global/2021/12/Schwingendes_Matterhorn/MH54_20190905_00Hxy_80X_ambient.mp3

  4. Albert

    Better here: All I’m saying is that Sweden is a liberal country. A liberal country has trust in its population. The Netherlands should think about all of this. I considered them a liberal country as well.
    Germany is as illiberal as you can get in democracies. In the two lockdowns spring 2020 and automn 2020 to spring 2021 there were people who called the police when their neighbours had one guest too much. It strongly sounded like a) DDR, b) National Socialism. The second lived from that (the first as well), there are books about it. Maybe it’s genetic. I abhor turning people in and have never once done this kind of thing.
    They push it all on one single guy, and that is the main problem. No one ever told them that they had been whistle blowers of the worst kind and that, without them, eliminatory anti-Semitism wouldn’t have had a chance. The key word here is obedience to authorities.

  5. This is me here and, I know it isn’t WorldbuildingCafe, but I would need a bit of help for anyone to check this:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10pX29E0n-JwhXv7WSFWPndncg97ovVqPRKjxq4qNKqo/edit#gid=0
    Anyone can download it if you want, but this is basically a graph for volcanoes similar to the Hawaiian Islands, but except for the fact that there are 2 hotspots instead of one. This may seem wacko, but I thought “hey, this might be possible”, so I did it anyways. The rough copy is here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Igea7Kt1K0QVoY5S8qHME2hn88vwbN7vfEEamsEo32I/edit#gid=0
    Got my numbers from sources I forgot to write down or even type (I know, I had one job). Basically, I have read the Kilauea Magma Root Series by Hector and, so, I did them in groups, except a little more detailed, like the “primary” has, during its formation at the 1st hotspot, has a more tholeiitic compositional component and also has a bit of a longer lifespan but not so much the alkalitic post-shield (which makes them more active during the main shield stage but not so-much during the post-shield, therefore making them the largest). On the other hand, the latest ones are the opposite of the primary (small, alkalitic, short main-shield phase but longer post-shield stage and being the smallest of the complex). After that, they go into a deep sleep (with a bit of volcanic activity with some and erosion taking hold) until the second hotspot is under their feet. The roles reverse and the primaries become the more alkalitic but less active, whereas the “recents” become the more tholeiitic and more active ones, which by the end, become the largest of the group. I have added some exceptions, nor did I account erosion for this, but it’s just a start. I turned to you guys because you guys are the experts at this. Reply to me if you would make any corrections.

    • This is from the Peter Vervoorn guy when I saw his message on Gmail (maybe next time comment here so that it’s not weirding me out).
      Note that I am only posting this for him and not anything malicious:

      Hi Zach. Saw the link on Volcano café and thought I’d have a look. The numbers seem to add up but I can’t make any sense of it I’m afraid.

      • Well, I kinda did a bit of research on the lifespan and growth rate of the volcanoes (specifically, the Hawaiian ones) and pretty much thought about it.
        These are my sources I now remember:
        https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/gsa/geosphere/article/9/5/1348/132675/Modeling-volcano-growth-on-the-Island-of-Hawaii
        https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/pp1801 (specifically Chapter 3)
        The volume is pretty, well, how much volume there is in each stage and how much time each stage takes (in normal years). They are pretty much random numbers I gave out, using the chart for each stage to make them a little realistic and calculated their volume by their average growth rate (even though they have ever-changing growth rates realistically). The plate movement of this area of oceanic plate is 11.4 cm/yr, compared to the 8-10 cm/yr of the Pacific Plate under the islands of Hawaii (the speed of the plates isn’t really constant, like this plate, on average, moves about 12 cm/yr), so I calculated the duration of how long the volcano sat on the hotspot for by ratio-ing it by dividing the distance by the speed rate of the Honas plate (Honas is the name for the fictional plate for now on). The growth rates of the volcanoes is pretty much calculating the power of the hotspot (% of the Hawaiian hotspot) and applied it to the growth rates of the Hawaiian volcanoes (i.e. the average growth rates of them) and the fun begins. I used the same techniques to the distance from their birth-spot. To be honest with you, the volcano separation rate is a little confusing for maybe even me, but basically it is a N-S trend, not really a 2d dimension, but, say Volcano 1 is at the hotspot, it is 0, however, Volcano 2 is 40 km away from Volcano 1 and Volcano 3 is 30 km from Volcano 2 (yeah, even I can’t really explain that but that’s what was going in my head) and so on, as a sort of separation rate (should’ve been separation distance away from another volcano), or, in other words, the volcanoes need space and, from there is when I began spitting numbers out onto there (from the rough copy, which is carefully polished for the ‘good’ copy) and that is the result I got for them. (Honestly, with that plate speed, they should be smaller). So yeah, that should clear any sort of confusion. (If it doesn’t, and, really, I am sometimes good at making some simpler things confusing, comment below).

    • When I saw “Hubble crisis” I immediately thought of the recent failure of the A side flight computer on the Hubble telescope. I thus felt somewhat confident that that particular Hubble crisis didn’t cause the extinction of the dinosaurs. 🙂 .

      • Yes, I also had to look twice at that. Of course anyone over he age of 50 is seen as a dinosaur by the younger generation and that is no different in science. But this paper claims that the difference in Hubble constant in the nearby and distant universe is not a measurement error (as most assume) but caused by a change in the gravitational constant. There is so much wrong with that that it is hard to know where to start (non-conservation of energy would be one). Linking it to the dinosaurs would be suitable for April 1. Poor things.

        • Preparations for the April 1 article anyhow need to kick off. This enables you to back it up with “peer reviewed scientific” articles.

  6. With high anxieties over the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the one thing that should be said is that this military action doesn’t automatically guarantee WW3. There have been several close calls that were far worse then what we are going through now, some were moments that an incredibly small change of leadership, split second actions, and small differences in timing stopped nuclear war.
    With that being said if this is how the world goes out, I’ll have to ask for fate’s manager on why a volcanic eruption wasn’t chosen for our demise

    • Well Tallis, as a normal citizen I wouldn’t understand why the world would get involved in a conflict between Russia and the US about a small and basically ridiculously small country like Ukraine plus interests in the Black Sea.
      But there are lots of things I don’t understand. I wonder i.e. about the brain structure of disgusting creatures – sorry – who are pondering a multi-generation space ship or about wanting to “offer” to people to live on the Moon or Mars, never to see any green or blue or their relatives again. Those personalities should go themselves. If they want to “colonize” Space they go and nobody else. Some people have become outright megalomaniacs, crazy without realizing.
      It is the fault of the ridiculous government in Ukraine btw. They made a law that those Eastern provinces are not allowed to speak Russian any more. I feel sorry for the US for supporting those governments in Ukraine.

      • Well well as Supreme Leader of Antartica .. Im sending my Pengiun Army To defend Ukraine

        Putin will soon face 100 billion angry Highly armed pengiuns .. Im also planning to deploy our ”Uruk Pengs” highly gene modifyed pengiun super soilders

      • Well well my friend

        My pengiun troops is already on the way up Ukraine

        Transports in giant zeppelins will soon arrive in Ukraine the Russian VS jespers penguin army 🙂

        Anyway what a scary situation

        • We don’t need getting involved there. The country never got its act together and should be split in two halfs. With or without a war this will be the result.
          I like your pengouin army though.
          Read my links about a possible massive meteorite impact before the Cryogenian. Basically you seem to like that sort of stuff.

        • It is one of the moments where I understand you. Or Tallis. When I think it would be better to die out. It is a completely stupid species. The rare exceptions only show what could have been.
          Wars make me think that we are an abberration of nature, a terrible mistake. To get out of this I regurlarly have to listen to a sane intelligent person, mostly a scientist.
          I hope there is still some mediation by Merkel or Schröder. The government we have now is insanely infantile. You can see it in cutting off Atomic Power first and then paying for Atomic Power from France and other countries. This is a government which seems to think that electricity comes out of sockets and sockets reload automatically.

      • Ukraine is not small by any measure. It is bigger than Germany and has the same population as Spain. It is almost a third of that of Russia.

        • Yeah sure, I more meant the pop. count. That’s why they could live without the Eastern provinces.
          But as you can clearly see I am more interested in the volcanism of the Tyrrhenian Sea, just saying, not interested in a war at all and not for Ukraine. Just making it as clear as mountain water.

        • It might even be the same old story, s.th. like a fix idea. You should study why Physicist Joseph Rothblat left the Manhatten Project.

      • They lived on a smal butte of ignimbrite. Volcanoes, altogether, are lesse dangerous than human enemies. As the hill suffers from erosion only 16 people live there today:

        Civita di Bagnoregio, east of Lago di Bolsena.

  7. Vladimir Putin is not a particularly likeable character; but he is responsible for the economy and security of Russia. I would be interested to read how people critical of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine would have done differently, if they were Putin, given US and NATO rejection of his reasonable request for security guarantees.

    2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis and invasion
    Main articles: 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis and 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
    In September 2021, Ukraine conducted military exercises with NATO forces.[229] The Kremlin warned that NATO expanding military infrastructure in Ukraine would cross “red lines” for Putin.[230][231] Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov denied allegations that Russia was preparing for a possible invasion of Ukraine.[232]
    On 30 November 2021, Putin stated that an expansion of NATO’s presence in Ukraine, especially the deployment of any long-range missiles capable of striking Russian cities or missile defence systems similar to those in Romania and Poland, would be a “red line” issue for the Kremlin.[233][234][235] Putin asked President Joe Biden for legal guarantees that NATO wouldn’t expand eastward or put “weapons systems that threaten us in close vicinity to Russian territory.”[236] The U.S. and NATO have rejected Putin’s demands.[237][238]

    • They also haves ”Satan 2” ready now
      Its the new russia ICBM s .. They are phasing out the old 1970 s ones replacing them with more advanced nuclear missiles. Apparently Satan 2 have a range of 19 000 km it .. and it haves many reentry warheads inside with perhaps 10 megaton for each.
      These behemoths will only be for last use if Putin feel that Russias existence is at danger.. they will be ”Terror Balance” for mutual destruction .. and That keept WW3 away during the cold war .. the largest nuclear devices are also the biggest ”peacekeepers” on Earth

      Its also possible that Putin will use very small tactical nuclear weapons in the Ukraine war .. souch are small ground missiles with up to 10 kiloton in yeild

      Im following the news.. But Im getting so tired 🥱 of everything

      • Unless Putin has completely lost it he wont use nukes in a war, because even a tactical nuke would make whatever people worried would happen at Chernobyl look like an accident in comparison. 10 kilotons is not much smaller than the Fatman and Little Boy, which levelled entire cities, nuclear weapons are not ‘tactical’, they are basically the weapons of gods.

        Chernobyl was abandoned the other day because the soldiers dug a trench in a hot zone and some got radiation poisoning.

      • Well its me reading too much about Tsar Bomba and the much bigger Chicxulub

        So fat man and little boy seems like minnows to me

        Im just as crazy .. the dream is a nuclear test with same yeild as Chicxlulub.. or an Antimatter Bomb …

        Two months ago I dreamt of a Thermonuclear Bomb as long as Titanic .. 🙂 hidden Inside a ship hull to avoid decetion

    • There are tactical nukes with a few Kilotons .. like the Beirut blast

      Such coud be launched by small missiles.. woud not supprise at all If the russian uses them

      We have seen Thermobaric weapons so far .. and they are scary enough. I guess a hypotetical Thermobaric weapon with same yeild as Fat Man woud probaly be just as deadly as anything nuclear ..

  8. I am sure you’re all familiar with what happened at last night’s ̶C̶i̶r̶c̶u̶s̶ Oscars. So let me just say that if I hear any more B.S about celebrity antics or other meaningless and useless “news” I am going to break into the white house and launch every ducking nuclear warhead! Or better yet! I will sprinkle my fairy dust on Toba. Campi Flegrei, Tatun. Yellowstone, and every other volcano on this planet and cause the volcanic winter to end all volcanic winters.

    • An Asteorid Impact is much better at making your volcanic winter of dreams 🙂

      But fun that Taal is back in action, been pheratomagmatic eruptions yesterday .. looks like its Maybe changing up for something massive

      • We’ll see what Taal does, I want a massive climate-altering eruption or nothing at all from this volcano. Davidof can deliver the fun harmless explosive eruption

  9. I keeps seeing halos and rainbows around ligths at nights.. and been doing that for a very long time. Im going To be investigated for glacoma

    I was born many months too early so eyesight problems is a certain, after all Im 26 now

    Althrough last time 9 months ago eye pressure was normal at optomerist

    But I needs a eye specialist To really have a look at the eyes

    • Im more suspecting cataract which can be fixed very easly. Im very young, but young adults can also get these problems

      Most likley is either cataract or even better Severe astigmatism.. the better alternatives

      Healthcare is cost free in this country But sucks it takes souch a very long time to get an health investigation .. been waiting for months.. so going try for a private clinic

      • Could be astigmatism. My daughter discovered she has astigmatism when she complained that lights at night gave long streaks across her vision.
        Good luck with the diagnosis.

  10. Jupiters pushes inside our sun .. just telling how massive our sun is

    I wonder whats the absolute limit of a stars mass. In the early universe there may have been Violet – Ultragiants with 1000 s of Sun masses?

    • Maybe the limit of when fusion can fight gravity before black hole collapse. Or the opposite where the star blows itself apart.

      Lots of really massie stars just turn into Wolf Rayet stars which form planetary nebulae and degenerate objects passively, and dont go supernova. Although when these stars actually do go supernova it is much more powerful than a normal one ecause of all the matter in the way which absorbs the energy. Because of that great mass loss though the second path might be the stellar limit, where fusion overcomes gravity.

      • I am afraid that nothing here is quite correct.. The stellar mass limit comes from the Jeans mass of interstellar clouds, which depends on temperature. Nowadays it is around 200 Msun. In the early Universe before elements other than hydrogen and helium existed it would have been quite a bit higher, but only for the very first stars.

      • R136a1 Is over 300 solar masses 🙂 and 9 million times brigther than our sun is

  11. Still the origin of modern, broadleaf megathermal flowering wet tropical rainforests remains a mystery! .. they fossilize very poorly due to rapid decompostion in these hot humid enviroments

    But already by PETM 55 million years ago
    They had a global distribution thanks to pollen preserved in oxygen poor sediments and fossil flora and fauna from anoxic jungle lakes thats pretty much the only places where tropical fossilzation is possible

    Still When the modern tropical flowering rainforest evolved is unknown .. because they fossilize so poorly.

    Earlier rainforests in Jurassic, Triassic,Permian and Carboniferous where Conifers and haves a good fossil record, probaly because they where less wet than flowering rainforests

    Flowering plants emerged in Early Cretaceous
    So Modern Angiosperm Jungles probaly evolved in Cretaceous.. Althrough lack of signs of frustrating.

    Drilling kilometers into marine sediments along africa, america, asia coud answer this question looking for pollen that blow of the continents

    • Messel Pit is the only good Early / Middle Eocene fossil site in Europe that preserves these rainforests as record .. due to its oxygen poor nature as a deep volcanic lake

      But Otherwise modern tropical rainforests haves a very poor fossil record

    • And gigatons of coal to charge them.

      An electric car is just an energy storage device. Nothing more.

      Don’t get me wrong. Electric vehicles are cool an all that, but it does not address the primary energy source.

      • The case for electric cars: It allows us to remove fossil fuels from the supply. We cannot run cars on wind or solar if they are not electric. The engine is much simpler and more reliable. If you were to design a car now, you would not propel it with explosion, like a mini project Orion. The cars should also last much longer.

        The case against: at the moment we don’t produce enough renewable electricity to run the cars. The batteries are still too small: you should not have to recharge during a one-day trip. The batteries may not last as long as the car. Very important if you are a car manufacturer: you don’t want cars to last longer. And finally, fossils fuels are a source of income to governments. Solar and wind is much harder to tax.

        On balance, electric cars are the future. I am not quite sure they are yet the present.

      • Might want to look at the other half of Tesla, battery storage and solar. Currently a smaller sector but expected to overtake the automotive side. Elon is rather crazy ambitious, but there is no denying he takes everything he says about this stuff seriously. Best to play on the side of caution about dates, but treat the missed dates as delays not failures. Love him or hate him he has directed things in a better direction a lot faster than would have happened otherwise. It is making the future I wanted as a kid sound possible 🙂

        Hes not alone either battery storage and solar/wind is going to explode this decade, not from environmental good will but economics, it is much cheaper and if properly implemented also much more reliable than fossil fuels, and the more is set up the faster and greener the installation of further assets will be. But it isnt sexy, cars are though, they needed to get attention. And for those rural niche uses where a battery is not adequate for useful range, biofuel might get its niche. Trucks and planes are where hydrogen research should be focussed, not cars. Battery recycling is also already a mature technology, just currently not profitable because most batteries ever made today are still in use, its grown that fast. In a few years recycling will be big business and highly profitable, and landfill will be recycled for the new valubles it now contains.

    • If you want to address my concerns… look at the similaities of Honey Hush by Foghat, and Train Kept a Rolling my Aereosmith. Two disparate songs that are remarkably similar but have disparate origins .

  12. Since the Webcam Viewer widget on the sidebar has been on the blink for a while (with a bit of code missing according to dev-tools) I have a link where you can get the source HTML, which I -try- to update at least ever quarter. https://sites.google.com/view/volcanoearth/vuemeister-webcam-slideshow. There’s an example of the updated version there as well as a link to my DL page.

    PS the rumours of m having left the planet were for the most part a gross exaggeration.

    • Good fix them because I cannot use them at all.. not been able so since 2018

      Im also working on my own Volcanocafe Article, Im writing about Nyiragongo and ultra – alkaline volcanism .. Im still writing and worth to write about

      Volcanocafe Blog is much better than Facebook Groups at discussing volcano stuff, and moving my activity over here competely. Also VC Blog WordPress is very tollerant of us ASD persons unlike FB

      You should also write your own post about volcanoes : ) why not write about your local bedrock that are the hearts of long gone subduction zone volcanoes, Georgia haves a fascinating geological history

      Im planning to write a later VC WordPress post about Kiruna Volcanism in Sweden as well that are a totaly fascinating topic

  13. So cool this is so cool
    You can clearly see Jupiter’s internal heat leaking out into space, thick cloud bands are dark and absorbing blocking escaping heat while thin clouds release heat instead

    In Hadean Era the whole Jupter woud have glowed like this for the visible eye 🙂 and probaly had hot metal and sillicate clouds in the upper atmosphere. I wonder If metal and sillicate clouds still exist today in the hotter layers below the water clouds.

    Even today .. Jupiter clearly remains extremely hot just a few 100 km below the visible clouds, 160 km below the water clouds its 300 C and rises up to perhaps 36 000 C at the center. Jupiter is the most massive planet in this solar system and haves the most internal heating

    Whops meant for the VC Bar

    ?fit=bounds&format=jpg&width=960

    ?quality=90&strip=all

    https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jamiecartereurope/2021/05/14/in-photos-see-jupiter-on-fire-in-hubbles-stunning-new-images-of-the-gas-giant-planet/amp/

    • Many Brown Dwarfs woud also look like this in the visible eye .. that are hot enough to glow, souch Brown Dwarfs can have 70 Jupiter masses crammed into a volume as small as Saturn .. making these gaseous Bodies as much 10 times denser than the metal Osmium! Yet its a gas

      Ended up in VC bar as wanted

      Some Brown Dwarfs are many many many many times denser than Osmium yet being gaseous..so you probaly float in these atmospheres and cannot sink

    • Absoutley nuts! 60 Jupiter masses crammed into a volume as Big as saturn .. No doubt that these substellar Brown Dwarfs are dense as hell

      A gassy body many many times denser than the metal Osmium cracks my mind: I guess its in a form of a superdense hydrogen liquid in the interior

      Their surface gravity must be crazy too, much higher than our bloated sun

      The smallest Red Dwarf Stars are also sickly dense

  14. Probably better to put here. That last comment I made, the daily HVO update inclided a new note of a short tremor from the ERZ. I might have managed to find it, just east of Pu’u O’o, detected by the seismometer KUPD which sits on the old Kupaianaha vent east of Pu’u O’o. Not very strong or visible anywhere else but then this is way out far from everywhere, unlikely to be human interference like happens at the summit sometimes.

    Additionally, there might be a slight upward trend at the JOKA station, which is further east and a bit north of the Heiheiahulu shield, further east than the area active in decades before 2018. There was significant inflation here after 2018 but nothing since before the recent eruptions at all, up to now, so noteworthy.

  15. somewhat off topic – but mostly aimed at Lurking (due to his radar/sonar skills) and also for similar plotting type folks

    Bats give off sound waves with distinct front edges – and you can record a trace a bit like you would on a seimograph, and you can obviously use those to locate the epicentre of earthquakes.

    If you have 3 sound recordings set up up in a 10m triangle – am I right in thinking with the speed of sound in air being 340m/s (or at least presumably a single value within a 100m radius) then a click front would take about 0.03 seconds to get across the triangle – so if one station got a click and the next got a click 0.01 seconds later and the third 0.03 seconds later (or something like that) – could you theoretically use the assumption that the bat is above the horizon (rather than in the ground) to plot where the bat was for each click in 3d space? (and assume that the bat is not inside the triangle with you)

    I think it ought to be possible – am I missing something obvious ?
    I’m guessing it’s a bit like plotting an earthquake swarm but in super fast speed (and down values being up values)

  16. 26 years ago since Galileos Atmospheric Probe fell into Jupiter, here is some nice renditions of what the local atmospheric enviroment coud have looked like. Falling into Jupiter is Falling into a bottomless gas ocean that becomes a liquid further down .. around – 150 C When it deployed its parachutes and +120 C when it lost contact and was crushed

    The Atmospheric Probe entered a dry zone with only thin clouds, You woud see a clear blue daysky due to reylenght scattering and a dark pit below.. you coud see a few 100 s of km down until the raylenght scattering makes that interior opaque and dark, and it woud defentivly be a horizon as well. The jovian daysky woud get more saturated with blue the deeper you go and perhaps even get red if you go deep enough j

    It woud be a disturbing sight specialy knowing its nothing solid below, clear skies over a bottomless pit.

    The probes parachutes woud have melted first after it lost contact, then the Probe metals melt as well becomming liquid droplets that fall down into Jupiters abyss, as temperatures reach over 2800 C all of the probes materials where vaporized and became a part of Jupiters atmosphere. The heat shield woud have lasted the longest When it fell into Jupiters interior, in Jupiters center its 36 000 C But the Probe only got below 100 km of the lowermost cloud layer

    • An unlucky human there woud fall down all way to the 200 0000 Bar level where the superhot atmosphere is a dense fluid, and you cannot sink further because the density of the sorruding Jupiter medium, also the victim becomes a carbonised space potato as well, since there is no free oxygen inside Jupiter. But the human may simply vaporize in the heat, alternativly it coud turn the body into diamond 💎 with the extreme pressures and temperatures inside Jupiter

      Falling into Jupiter will kill you No doubt about that 😉

      • You would be dead much faster from lack of oxygen, or the cold at high altitude, so no need to worry about getting turned into a space potato.

        Hydrogen is not inert at those temperatures, it would probably react with carbon to make light hydrocarbons way before the point if neutral buoyancy. Only bit left might be bones, which are more dense so would go deeper. Not sure what depth bones would float there but it might be pretty shallow still, since Jupiter as a whole still has a density more than that of water and the core is probably comparable to gold or tungsten.

    • Right, But with an pressurized oxygen tank and warm clothes you coud probably be fine at Jupiters tropospause 50 km above the upper ammonia cirrus. I wonder what that woud look like, You woud have an immensely distant horizon knowing how Big Jupiter is and perhaps see a dark blue daysky

      The CGI renditions here are the only accurate trys at simulating that

      The thunderstorms woud be an Impressive sight 70 km high with anvils 4000 km wide for the really nasty convective outbursts.. feed by Jupiters Internal Heat, They are atmospheric air volcanoes

      On Saturn it woud be much less features I guess since the cloud layers are deeper and Saturn have much less internal heat generation, crush depth is also much deeper there

    • Falling into a Brown Dwarf woud be even worse .. souch objects can as small as Saturn yet having 60 Jupiter masses, giving them phenomenaly high avarge density that can be 10 times higher than Osmium! Its kind of hard to imagine how dense that is… You coud fall into these too as well, But You woud not get very far inside.
      A gas body thats so insanely dense and hardly a gas either ..

      Atmospheric Entry on a massive Brown Dwarf must be insane! Knowing how high their gravity is, any probe woud be accelerated to tremedous speeds, At Jupiter its 60 km a second, But at Brown Dwarfs atmospheric entries are much much faster, so fast that Maybe not possible to enter at all even with heat shield

      • Be interested to know of lightning would also occur on Brown Dwarfs and Hot Jupiter, like it does on Jupiter and Saturn.

      • Probaly when liquid lava droplets and solid sand particles run togther in sillicate clouds .. just like an ashcloud of volcanic origin on Earth

        Brown Dwarfs can have sillicate clouds and metal clouds

    • Neptune and Uranus is pretty strange too as well, they are mega masses of Hot ionic water and ammonia ”Ice Giants” with only an outer hydrogen part. Their interiors are hot soups of water and ammonia at 1000 s of degrees C like nothing else in the solar system really. Althrough they too lack a solid surface, Seriously needs Atmospheric Entry probes for these planets, they are also easier to enter than Jupiter and so diffrent they are as well from the larger jovian giant planets

  17. Rare photo of the Jupiter Atmospheric Probe, by far the most difficult atmospheric entry ever tryed, from 50 km a second to 200 kilometers an hour in 4 minutes: and 16 000 C plasma envelope around it and 230 G forces. I read that 80% of the heat shield was burned away during these terrible minutes. If Jupiter was more massive it woud barely be possible with even higher Entry speeds

    The heat – shield was dropped into Jupiters interior and probaly made it almost to the outer liquid hydrogen layer since its Carbon Phenolic and very heat resistant.

  18. If Jupiters major moons where all Earth sized woud we end up with a Super IO? The tides sourely woud go beyond insanity

    • Well a Super Earth stuck between two Supermassive black hole binaries woud be ideal

    • No. The solid tides would be about 2-3 times higher than Io has now. Any liquid tide would be smaller than you think, because the tide velocity would be much higher than the wave velocity, so a very poor quality factor.

  19. This might be an odd thing to ask but is there any advice of how to create a sort of hotspot system similar to the Hawaiian Island chain but not?

    I came here (in the first place) to get inspiration because I am a sort of worldbuilder (it is more of a hobby than a job) who is all wacko for volcanoes and downloads PDFs to get a bit of realism for what is or what isn’t possible.

    My particular interest is, well, an island chain with 2 hotspots. (I have sorta done this before but it became very confusing and insanity was at hand)…

    2 hotspots, you may ask? Well, it is like this: the plate moves north-ish at 11.8 cm a year in that area, at the tropics, far from any continent.

    The 1st hotspot (as powerful as the one in Hawaii) creates an island chain similar to, well, Hawaii but, 670 km north from the origin, they intersect another hotspot slightly more powerful than the one that created the islands in the first place.

    I mostly figured out what to do on the 1st “part” (or hotspot, taking notes from Hectors posts and a few PDF’s), you know, calculating growth rates of each volcano, how long they are active for and how big they are.

    The second part, however, is dubious and speculative for me. Initially, I thought the volcanoes were gonna re-activate, but the magma would’ve solidified by then, so that was mostly out of the window.

    Presently, the amount of lava made by the volcanoes would’ve made the crust thicker, so I would assume that the crust would be similar to continental crust, where it would produce magma chambers and erupt out more siliceous materials in a diverse range of magma types erupted, therefore more types of volcano morphology mostly exotic to oceanic hotspots. (I was even thinking about the possibility of a supervolcano on the island, however, that would make no sense at all).

    I could be wrong, which is why I am asking for advice in the VC bar.

    • How massive is your planet? If its a rocky world bigger than Earth then you will have some serious geological activity! Only 2 Earth masses will insanely increase internal heating

      Some Super Earths have 10 Earth masses.. and probaly are as volcanic as IO because of that …and Thats insane internal heating If it haves an Earthlike composition

      I wonder If a Rock Giant is possible perhaps coud form in dust rich planetary disks that are free of hydrogen thats been blown away by their central Star. Souch planets will become ” Magma Giants” because of their internal heating

      How Big can terestrial planets get?

      • Pretty much an exact Earth analog with a moon about 0.81 Luna masses and about 0.279 Earth radii. (Smaller than the Moon). (I know that Moons do not affect the planets geology in any way). On that same note, it has a semi-major axis of 350200 km, closer to the planet than our moon to Earth.

        Despite its size, it would make the average tide height of 0.384 meters. (To be honest, I have no idea what that is relative to the average tide height on Earth, which hence I have no idea).

        The planet itself has a northern hemispheric supercontinent with some land crossing the equator into the northern hemisphere. It has began to break up about 30 million years ago to form a mostly latitude-oriented sea that is colder than the ocean due to a ice cap that formed on the land near it.

        The ice cap formed due to the break-up that is providing moisture and cooling it down because of a Himalayas-like range that has begun forming 20 million years ago due to a smaller continent colliding with the supercontinent itself (and also a few Andean-type ranges).

        The only land bridge connecting the two pieces is a land bridge of slightly excessive mid-ocean ridge volcanism. I haven’t gotten around completing an elevation map for the climate, though.

      • I read about there is a rocky exoplanet with 40 Earth masses ( most massive terestrial planet ever discovered) that yeilds 4G in gravity and an insane internal heating.. Maybe the whole object is molten because of that also likey is the stripped core of a gas giant

        And Live view of Etna Erupting https://vincenzomodica.com/etna-stromboli-webcam/

    • Interestingly, this is what happens in Hawai’i. Many of the submarine mounts around the islands are from a much older volcanic field which now passes the hot spot. We can see the mounts on the ocean floor, but there will also be ones underneath the Big island and we don’t know where or what they would do! It makes Hawai’i a bit like the princess and the pea. In your case, 670 km with 11.8 cm/yr makes the volcanoes 5.7 million years old. The magma will have solidified. The spot will remelt this. It is a bit lower density than pure basalt because of separation of minerals. The remelt will be buoyant and rise. It may have taken in water if it was under water for all that time. Expect an explosive mixture when volcanism starts. Katla does this a bit. It can produce both basalt and rhyolite, the latter presumably from remelting of old magma.

      • Wow, I did not really know that the already-solidified magma would melt faster than the extrusive basalts, though I was thinking that any large volcano (i.e. Mauna Loa) would have a sort of thick enough crust to create magma chambers, which at first would be more silica-rich. I would expect totally new volcanoes to arise from this volcanism.

        Decompression melt (due to the atoms within the magma having more space due to decreased pressure) might be possible before the second stage starts, although they would be minute compared to the enormity of the volcanism potentially unleashed by the secondary hotspot (which, by mind, has about 120% the strength of the previous hotspot).

        It would be likely that the islands would re-rise due to the swell of that hotspot. If this was Hawaii, Kaua’i would essentially rise by around 1-3 km. By that time, Kaua’i would by then be a active volcano probably bigger than even Mauna Loa but steeper due to more siliceous inputted into the volcano.

        It would be that when the island first formed would move away from the 1st hotspot and sink and be inactive for a long time, by the eroded heavily with coral reefs around it, until it meets up with the 2nd hotspot. It would gradually rise and volcanism becoming more active until a style of bimodal volcanism appears, potentially more silica rich but, as time goes, it would produce more mafic products until it moves away from the hotspot, this time officially extinct.

        I would expect a few calderas in the 1st phase in the reactivation (maybe a potential supervolcano, who knows), with the older phases being big shield volcanoes and the height of these monstrosities being larger than maybe even Puhahonu of the Gardener Islands, even though that would be cheating because they got another chance.

        I also realized about another thing – the plume tail of the first hotspot crossing though the island chain until the 2nd hotspot, could that make any volcanism way before they even meet the 2nd hotspot? Or would it be all “rejuvenation” (decompression) until the 2d spot?

    • Also, I may ask – which values for the vector speed of the Pacific Plate under Hawai’i is correct: ~10.5 cm/yr (based on using the age of Kaua’i and the distance from Kame’ahuakanaloa (Lō’ihi) to Kaua’i), ~9 cm/yr (Wikipedia map) or ~7 cm/yr (based on Google and a paper describing GPS movements on Muana Kea). (Yes, this is a stupid question)

      The sort of reasoning why because I want to do some percentages on how long the stages of the volcano is going to last, based on plate movement and comparing them to the Hawaiian volcano values and applying them to the island chain here.

      I definitely know that, based on the plate movements of the plate, it is 11.8 cm/yr, but there are many conflicting answers online to the point where I have no idea which one to use.

      I also know that areas on the plate go through different vectors (the plate the island chain resides has a top “speed” of more than 12 cm/yr and the fastest plate on this planet (not Earth) goes at a top speed of 28 cm/yr! How I love to go a little unrealistic…). That is the particular reason why I asked that mid-school muti-questionare thingykabob.

      • The speed of the Pacific plate probably has varied a bit over time. Or the hot spot may have moved itself to the south, adding a bit to the relative motion. For the plate, a direct measurement has indicated that the current speed is 6.9+-1.9 cm/yr. That is probably where the ‘7’ comes from. It was obtained by measuring the distance between Hawai’i and Japan over a few years! Over the past 18 million years, the average speed of the Hawai’ian volcanoes was 8.1 cm/yr. Those are the best two numbers that are available.

        • With that confirmed, the plate the islands stand on is very quick, and with that quickness (“speed”) the islands would have less time building up their edifices.

          If I used the former, the volumes and the activity would be reduced by 58.5%, meaning that they would create smaller islands. If that was applied to Hawaii, they would be much smaller but with more volcanoes. Hypothetically (using a bit of alternate history-geology thing in mind), there would be many more islands but all of them would also be smaller than the current islands now. If I used the latter, it would be 68.6%, still smaller but alt least a little more massive than say at 58.8%.

          I have, however, heard of the infamous Kea and Loa trend (this subject might be in the boundaries of what Hector covers) and, as far as I know, the Kea trend goes at 8.6 cm/yr, where as the Loa trend goes at 10.6 cm/yr in terms of propagation rates (found this out in the article “Modelling volcano growth on the Island of Hawaii: Deep-water perspectives” https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/gsa/geosphere/article/9/5/1348/132675/Modeling-volcano-growth-on-the-Island-of-Hawaii ), but I have no idea how this will apply to something that is much faster than even the trends but is it possible something like this could arise.

          (As far as I know, they appeared 2-3 MYA after a shift in direction of the Pacific Plate and that something similar to this happened to other islands in the whole Hawaiian-Emperor sea-chain )

          • Forget about that. The ting doesn’t like me to link to a photo on Wikimedia.

          • p

            Hope I “cheated” the system (by adding an extra letter to the URL, I think).

          • Never mind. Delete this whole chain of reply spams which I was trying to link to a photo. My apologies for my spamming. Seems the system worked I guess.

  20. IO does not have an Atmosphere and that means its no convective cooling on IO .. so lava flows cool very slowly on IO Despite being around – 150 C radiation cooling is a slow process. … this coud explain why lava crust remain hot and flexible on IO longer than it does on Earth and coud explain why pahoehoe is much more common on IO .. But Ionian lavas coud also be even hotter and more fluid than Earths hottest sillicate lavas

    Lava fountains and lava channels on IO takes much longer to develop their shiney dark crusts or dark tephra curtains than Hawaiian do because of lack of convective cooling on IO

    • Albert.. perhaps you coud imagine
      Lava flows flowing out on IO s surface
      On Earth They quickly develop a grey skinn .. even seconds after air exposure

      On IO it takes many minutes for that to happen ? No convective cooling on IO .. lava channels on IO must be glowing more than on Earth

  21. Ingenuity update. Bad news and good news. The bad news is that Flight 29 hasn’t happened yet as Ingenuity’s primary inclinometer appears to have failed (possibly due to cold cycling). The good news is that backup accelerometers in the IMU (Inertial Measurement Unit) are functional and a software patch is being uplinked to switch to these sensors.

    https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/status/385/keeping-our-sense-of-direction-dealing-with-a-dead-sensor/

    Keeping Our Sense of Direction: Dealing With a Dead Sensor

    Over the past several sols on Mars, the Ingenuity team has been busy recommissioning the helicopter for flight, going through a series of activities that include preflight checkout of sensors and actuators and a high-speed spin of the rotor. These activities have revealed that one of the helicopter’s navigation sensors, called the inclinometer, has stopped functioning. A nonworking navigation sensor sounds like a big deal – and it is – but it’s not necessarily an end to our flying at Mars.

    Impersonating the Inclinometer

    Ingenuity’s sensor suite provides some redundancy when it comes to sensing attitude on the ground. The IMU contains accelerometers, which – just like the accelerometers within the inclinometer – can be used to estimate the initial attitude. Unlike the inclinometer, the IMU is not purpose-built for sensing static orientation, so its initial attitude estimates will generally be somewhat less accurate. However, we believe an IMU-based initial attitude estimate will allow us to take off safely and thus provides an acceptable fallback that will allow Ingenuity to resume flying.

    Ingenuity needs to make Flight 29 fairly soon to position itself to stay in radio contact with Perseverance.

    • Amazing flyover 3D model of backshell/parachute crash site by Simeon Schmauß constructed from images from both colour and navcam images. Well worth a look at link. Also 3d interactive model.

      https://twitter.com/stim3on/status/1533494858962415616

      Simeon Schmauß @stim3on Jun 5

      On Sol 414 the Ingenuity mars helicopter scouted the crash site of the parachute and backshell that brought it and the rover safely through the atmosphere before it was jettisoned and crashed on the surface.
      Interactive version on @Sketchfab https://skfb.ly/ouWG7

      Also worth a look at Simon’s pinned tweet. It’s even about a volcano 🙂

      Simeon Schmauß @stim3on Dec 20, 2021

      Did I ever mention how awesome telephoto video of Earth from Space is? In this one I assembled from images taken by @NASA Astronauts aboard @Space_Station
      you can see the explosive eruption of Sarychev Volcano back in 2009, sending a Plume of ash over 10km up in the Sky.

  22. Yep, I am back in this VC Bar and, in my absence, I have built about 22 volcanoes (so far) over a distance of about 560 kilometers over a span of about 4.74 million years in my world. Looks I have been a bit productive in my building but it is only beginning. As a matter of fact, I only have magma supply rates listed so far and I haven’t even completed the list yet. The thing is here below:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12YBlW3uLKNnJyX4IBFECHmNqQfESyU8NuPgy74vydig/edit#gid=0

    (And also as a note, do not email me except when asking permission to view my work. It’ll feel a bit awkward when someone does email me about their thoughts on the work.)

    For a bit of context, the volcanoes are formed by a hotspot 80% the power of the Hawaiian hotspot (I was thinking about equivalent to the Hawaiian hotspot, but I kinda refuted that) over a area of plate that moves about 11.8 cm/yr. The grey boundaries represent fracture zones that, so far as I heard, act like boundaries for the “blocks” (i.e. the volcanoes that share a distinct shoreline break), which I have from the Hawaii PODD channel on Youtube. Link on them talking about fracture zones here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4UFZo7qiy0

    Also, I have color-coded the volcanic complexes on the graph, too. The hotspot’s trail, however, would be a bit different than the plate motion direction, which it is going a bit more to the east.

    The process in which I did this is that, on a sketch app, I scaled the size of the hotspot, put on zones of the hotspot based on melt supply rates, added a graph upon the hotspot relative to scale and drew nearly-straight lines through it, measured the distance made through the zones, calculated the years based on the speed of the plate and rounded them up to fit into the graph (i.e. if it was 34,005, then it would 40,000 (i.e. 4 boxes on the graph), and it is confusing, but hopefully it helps).

    The light red line at the 568 mark is the beginning of the 2nd hotspot (120% of the Hawaiian hotspot), but I am particularly a little busy with the volcanoes made by the 1st but I do want to know a bit of hindsight of what’s to come when the volcanoes arrive at that 2nd hotspot.

    Albert earlier did say that the intrusive magma would re-melt and that it’ll be explosive at first, but exactly how is what I am wondering about: is the old volcanoes going to reactivate and use the same magma systems as they would when they were formed on the 1st hotspot or is it that totally new volcanoes are going to emerge out of the corpses of their supporting ancestors or both, I just don’t know for sure. For now, however, I’ll just focus on the functions of the 1st hotspot before moving on to the 2nd hotspot.

    (the graph only goes to 1535 slots, or up to 15.35 million years because it would take forever to do the whole chain, but besides that, healthy criticism welcome.)

    • Correction: it seems that I might’ve mistaken. They said that fracture zones could help with volcanism, but I could say that the “boundaries” are crust that isn’t fractured and that, in some way, could slightly decrease the chances of a volcano forming.

  23. What are your thoughts on the current state of the AMOC in light of the recent papers published that have suggested we’re more rapidly approaching its “state change” tipping point than previously believed. The AMOC varies between a fast / active state and a slow / inactive state where the current is pulled further south and is generally less forceful. The Younger Dryas is thought to be the most recent excursion into the slower state.

    This video is a good overview of the most recent papers. Forgive the length and overall dry approach / speaking voice, but it’s quite a thorough overview.

    https://youtu.be/qCDwHgztFio

    I know the IPCC put out a statement several years ago that they had no expectations of any severe disruptions to the thermohaline circulation in the next several centuries, but this was largely before the most recent research suggesting we’re quite briskly approaching the tipping point.

  24. Fun question! What woud an eruption look like for a Brown Eagle?

    One reason We humans can Enjoy a volcanic eruption is because We are the only primate group ( Simians ) that have full color – vision and the only mammal group that haves a high resolution Foveola: Human eyes are the mammalian trys on bird eyes. Humans and other Simian primates have pretty good eyesight.

    But I have ALWAYS wondered .. what woud Fagradalshraun look like for a Diurnal Bird of Prey? The animals kingdoms best eyes..What woud a lava flow look like for a dinurnal Eagle? They have superior color – vision ( even much better than ours ) and perhaps up to 8 times our resolution as well. … with even more closely packed cones and ability to see further into the reds and ultraviolet

    Are an eruption super – vivivd for these animals?

    A dog and cat .. can never Enjoy an eruption
    They lack the foveola and color cones

    • An eruption must look fantastic for a Diurnal Eagle! With souch good eyesight and colorvison

      Perhaps Chad the animal expert can visualize 🙂

      I guess Eagles see darker and richer and deeper color tones than we Humans do .. must be incredible

    • I Myself seen an eruptions upclose on Kilaūea and Etna .. that ..hot glowing Orange is something that I Will never forget … its mesmorizing! And only possible to Enjoy through a Simian Primate eye

      So Whats about the Raptors..

      • Off topic, but Jesper I’m so excited for your Nyiragongo article!!

        I don’t know tons about that volcano, just mainly what I’ve read from your comments over the past year.

        I’m super excited to take a more in depth dive on it!

    • No Idea What an lava eruption woud look like for an Eagle .. but certainly pretty awsome

      For a dog or cat .. lavas are brown to yellowish Brown .. as they lack the red cones and they dont have High resolution vision

  25. I have this odd idea that I was thinking of, constantly: what if we created our own volcanoes?

    Of course, the idea sound quite ridiculous and childish (I feel kinda ashamed for letting this out for some reason), but I have done it for quite a while and, whilst some complete, others not so much. It is pretty much a time waster for me, drawing on a app on my phone, adding layer after layer by age by age, and lava after lava, and pyroclastics after pyroclastics… you get the idea, until I am quite satisfied with my product. How I did it was by choosing a color to start with and progress with the colors, like an age progression of eruptions. For explosive eruptions and landslides, they would change in brightness and saturation.

    Hotspot volcanoes (particularly of the Hawaiian kind) are the most enjoyable because, well, I am amused by the geological history of the Hawaiian Islands. I did do some non-hotspots too, some I am kinda proud of, whilst others I got bored with over time. Of course, I had an idea to have some sort of competition or show and tell our volcanic creations and it really got to the point where I was thinking about adding your volcanoes to my world I am working on (but that might be a bit selfish).

    P.S. I have no idea what else I had to say as an ending.

  26. “A dog and cat .. can never Enjoy an eruption, They lack the foveola and color cones”. Ah but a dog or cat has a superior sense of smell that few birds (except vultures and a few others ) enjoy. My dog, a West Highland Terrier has a nose that leaves me in awe of his abilities. At night, he’ll sit up, sniff the air and go to the closed window and push the curtains aside. He knows animals are going walk about but I see and smell nothing. He is a creature of his nose, his hearing is also acute, so what he lacks in eyesight he makes up for with other senses. He enjoys a good skunk, so the sulfur smell of lava would probably be equally exciting. I have watched him smell under every shrub and follow a trail until he comes back with a vole or shrew in mouth. In conclusion, a dog or a cat would enjoy an eruption in their own way.

  27. Long time no lurk, but I just found this splendid animation about the Mount Pelee eruption. Think anime not simulation.

  28. Hi, I’m Dan. From Baltimore.

    I’ve been a longtime lurker for the last 4 years, probably long past time I should’ve said hello. I’ve learned a lot on here and I appreciate this place for that.

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